|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total) |
| |
popoi | |
Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
Member (Idle past 2493 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Why are all Christians atheists? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I don't think they do, actually. They spend a lot of time saying that their religion is the One True Faith, but I don't recall many fundies claiming to have seriously considered any other religion with an open mind before settling upon fundamentalist christianity.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
mike the wiz Member Posts: 4752 From: u.k Joined: |
What's that? Magic. -- Just a possible truth. I'm betting you already accept that there are mysteries to reality that far exceed human knowledge. Reality might go further than what we can experience and study. What we know might be true but might only be like the earth's crust - thin. Even probability alone can create results. Like winning the lottery - impossible before, but ertain afterwards. The universe itself is magic enough for me.
Do you mean that it is only an opinion that any superstition is made up, or just the one you subscribe to? Haha. That assumes it is a superstition. Well, it's like CS said in response to you - it's just not evident to believers, that God is made up. To you, you lump all gods in the same superstitious group. But to us it's not the same, because we don't think as you do. Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Sure, but...so what? If we don't know, then we don't know. Going beyond that and saying, "There are mysteries that far exceed human knowledge, but [i]I actually have special, unsharable knowledge that allows me to understand those mysteries" is making an unwarranted leap. It's just making stuff up. What else could it be, since we have no way of knowing if you are correct?
quote: No, it doesn't, really. How is it not a superstition? All belief in the supernatural is superstition. "Religion" is just what we call our own superstition when we want to make it sound better and more respectable than all the other superstitions.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Doddy Member (Idle past 5910 days) Posts: 563 From: Brisbane, Australia Joined: |
It's not usually offered to portray the religious as hypocrites; it's usually offered in response to a believer who says "I can't imagine/it's not possible to not believe in God." In that case it's highly appropriate to point out, in reply, all of the various and sundry Gods that the speaker already doesn't believe in. I agree. It is very useful against the argument that to be an atheist requires to first assert the existence of a god, then deny it. Maybe also can be used if someone asks an atheist for absolute proof, that does not rest on faith, of the non-existence of a supreme being. Or for one who argues that it is impossible to disprove a god. It can also be used if someone tries to bring up Pascal's Wager, which you can turn around to Zeus vs atheist or Wodin vs atheist to show the ineffectiveness of the argument. But it isn't a very strong argument for atheism itself. Atheism is the opponent of theism, and so various types of theism are really beside the point. I suppose it is correct to say that a Christian is an atheist towards the Invisible Pink Unicorn (BBHHH), because they are lacking a belief in that deity, but I'm not sure it is a useful argument against Christianity. Contributors needed in the following fields: Physical Anthropology, Invertebrate Biology (esp. Lepidopterology), Biochemistry, Population Genetics, Scientific Illustration, Scientific History, Philosophy of Science, Logic and others. Researchers also wanted to source creationist literature references. Register here!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Doddy Member (Idle past 5910 days) Posts: 563 From: Brisbane, Australia Joined: |
Nuggin writes: However, there is no more evidence for belief in their faith than there is for belief in any other faith. As such, they are discarding all Gods save one out of hand based on the same criteria they are using to prop up the one they choose. That's faith for you. Contributors needed in the following fields: Physical Anthropology, Invertebrate Biology (esp. Lepidopterology), Biochemistry, Population Genetics, Scientific Illustration, Scientific History, Philosophy of Science, Logic and others. Researchers also wanted to source creationist literature references. Register here!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
LinearAq Member (Idle past 4676 days) Posts: 598 From: Pocomoke City, MD Joined: |
Nuggin writes: All Fundamental Christians are Atheists in regards to Zeus, Apollo, Thor, Vishnu, Coyote, the Hero Twins, and many many more Gods I don't think that Fundamentalist Christians are athiests with respect to those other gods. Many of the ones I know believe that there is a supernatural aspect to those religions caused by the Enemy and his minions. Those religions are designed by Satan to fool the unwary and obscure the True Faith. They call them myths only with regard to the fact that the particular top guy of that religion is not the True God.As I recall, Faith actually made such a statement several times when speaking about Islam.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
People who believe in Zeus are wrong because they think that God's name is actually Zeus, but it's not, it's God. There's more to it than that, but still, I'm not an athiest even WRT Zeus.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
mike the wiz Member Posts: 4752 From: u.k Joined: |
Going beyond that and saying, "There are mysteries that far exceed human knowledge, but I actually have special, unsharable knowledge that allows me to understand those mysteries" is making an unwarranted leap. It's just making stuff up. What else could it be, since we have no way of knowing if you are correct? So if force X divulges information to source C but source D doesn't know it, or can't know it, then it's made up?
How is it not a superstition? All belief in the supernatural is superstition Define superstition. I usually think of superstition as in the following; If I step on cracks in the pavement, I'll die in two days Or; If the wind turns the tide the Oden wants me to live Belief in God of itself, is not a superstition. I agree that he is unknowable in a sense, but only because of a technicality which is irrelevant. If force X and source C have a correspondence, it's irrelevant as to what other sources conclude. it becomes a reality which is merely unknowable to other sources. Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Nuggin Member (Idle past 2493 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
I don't think that Fundamentalist Christians are athiests with respect to those other gods. Many of the ones I know believe that there is a supernatural aspect to those religions caused by the Enemy and his minions. How is that not atheism in regards to Thor? Fundy - "I don't believe that Thor is real, I believe that people who believe in Thor are just being tricked by the Devil". That's atheistic in regards to Thor. (or Zeus, or Coyote, etc.) Just because Fundamentalists are polytheistic in regards to God and Satan, doesn't mean that they are not atheistic in regards to every other God in the Universe
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Nuggin Member (Idle past 2493 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
How are these any different:
"If the wind turns the tide, Oden wants me to live."-and- "If two men love each other, they will both burn in Hell." Both are either completely arbitrary or absolutely true. You can't say that there is any more evidence for one than the other. ------ second point ------ If Force X and Source C have a correspondence, and Source C goes back to taking their lithium and Force X vanishes, does that mean that lithium can kill God? Edited by Nuggin, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Jazzns Member (Idle past 3912 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
it's usually offered in response to a believer who says "I can't imagine/it's not possible to not believe in God." I agree with you with the way you phrased it but the core question from the OP seems different than what you are talking about.
OP writes: What reason do you have to believe that people with as much, if not more, spiritual evidence in the existence of their Gods are some how wrong? The hidden implication in that question is that we are talking about hypocrisy.
In that case it's highly appropriate to point out, in reply, all of the various and sundry Gods that the speaker already doesn't believe in. But they don't have disbelief in those Gods for the same reasons. ("I can't imagine/its not possible to not believe in God") They have disbelief in those Gods because they believe that their particular holy book instructs them to have this disbelief. This is why the argument fails with fundamentalists. They don't necessarily reject other deities on their base absurdity. They reject them because THEIR God says to. Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Jazzns Member (Idle past 3912 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
However, there is no more evidence for belief in their faith than there is for belief in any other faith. As such, they are discarding all Gods save one out of hand based on the same criteria they are using to prop up the one they choose. I agree. But a fundamentalist is not going to see it that way. They are often going to cite some ethereal "fate" argument (i.e. I used to be into drugs, alcohol, satanism) for why they found their particular God and the exclusivity just gets snowballed in. It is not like all the pantheon of Gods that have ever existed were laid out in front of these people and they arbitrarily chose one. I just think that you are not going to find a meat in a discussion surrounding this challenge to religious people. Their rejection of other deities is not based on reasonableness or objectivity. Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Like I said already, there's no way to tell if you are correct. It might as well be made up if there's no way to know which one is right. OTOH, we DO know that certain brain abnormalities make people hear God, or demons, or aliens, or what have you. If someone who says they are Jesus, are they Jesus?
quote: So, how can one tell the difference between reality and self-delusion in this case?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
mike the wiz Member Posts: 4752 From: u.k Joined: |
So, how can one tell the difference between reality and self-delusion in this case? I've no genuine reason to believe it is self-delusion, from my experience. It's a process that is interior and exterior, and my inferences are reasonable. I don't need a science experiment to know that chocolate is tastey to me. It's only your assumption that it is self-delusion which would make me start to consider whether that experience was delusion.Just because you assign self-delusion to the equation doesn't mean it is that. Like I said already, there's no way to tell if you are correct. That doesn't mean I'm incorrect. You favour that it IS superstition, and that it is incorrect, which isn't impartial Shraff - it comes from your own beliefs. If you and I started typing in Japanese, and only you and I could understand it - then objectively, people could conclude that we're speaking nonsense, if they never come to understand Japanese. Now dost thou ponder the unlimitles irrefutability of my tongue?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
nator writes: They spend a lot of time saying that their religion is the One True Faith, but I don't recall many fundies claiming to have seriously considered any other religion with an open mind before settling upon fundamentalist christianity. It's true that in "real life" they pick a religion first. ("Oh, look. By sheer coincidence, it's my parents' religion.") And then they "consider" other religions. ("Oh, look. By sheer coincidence I picked the right one on the first try.") But I think their own thought process often makes the consideration retroactive. ("Oh, look. Not only did I make the right choice, but I made it in a completely fair and rational way.") My original point to Nuggin was that the decision to be a theist comes first and then the flavour of theist is chosen - to their way of thinking, anyway. So, what the OP suggests isn't going to make much sense from the fundie point of view. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024