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Author Topic:   Get Over Your Fear of Atheism
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 151 of 169 (394727)
04-12-2007 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Taz
04-12-2007 8:29 PM


Re: Fallacy check!
Am I the only one that thinks smilies are silly?
I use them strictly as tone devices, Taz. Since you can`t see my voice stress, shrugged shoulders, hand-gestures, body stance, lifted eyebrow, etc.,all the hints that accompany face-to-face conversation, I`ll pop those critters in till a better form of accent is invented. Often, I post with irony and it gets misinterpreted if a face dancer is not included. Saves the hassle of ten more posts explaining my stance to those irony-deprived. Someone said we should be able to convey the exact sentiment with words without smilies, but notice your disclaimer. Even talented wordsmiths can be trapped by the English language. Meanwhile, I`ll decorate my text and keep the peace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Taz, posted 04-12-2007 8:29 PM Taz has not replied

  
One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6155 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 152 of 169 (394764)
04-13-2007 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Taz
04-12-2007 6:11 PM


Re: Fallacy check!
Not according to my experience.
Well according to mine, it does so work.
Whether we beat them over the head with a hammer or be as nice as humanly possible to them they're never going to change their narrow minded way.
Again, my own personal experience, which is as weak as the evidence you presented, disagrees.
What exactly can we say to someone that writes like "evilution sux god rules" and declares to have cosmic wisdom on all things except "you suck" as a reply?
Just because someone starts something childish doesn't mean you have to stoop to that opening statement's level. I KNOW--it's so very hard not to. But really, if you think the statement is that childish and narrowminded, you should hardly feel the need to retort. Killing with kindness works very well here as opposed to face-to-face situations where someone could physically attack you... and even then, there are times when you can talk your way through things rather than kicking your way through them, as I've learned since I used to post on this site.

I'm bent, bruised, broken, and a little lost. But you know what? I'm not so afraid as you are, who has never ventured away from the trail.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Taz, posted 04-12-2007 6:11 PM Taz has not replied

  
tsig
Member (Idle past 2908 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 153 of 169 (394862)
04-13-2007 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by mpb1
04-01-2007 6:33 PM


Re: Why I didn't become an atheist
but I don't want to miss out on Heaven.
But blowing off the life you have is ok?

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 Message 11 by mpb1, posted 04-01-2007 6:33 PM mpb1 has not replied

  
tsig
Member (Idle past 2908 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 154 of 169 (394863)
04-13-2007 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by mpb1
04-01-2007 7:42 PM


suicide
ll sin will be judged, and those who have not trusted in Jesus Christ as Lord and savior will receive the Judgment of God because they refused to accept the sacrifice of His Son.
If jesus was god then the sacrifice on the cross was a suicide.

This message is a reply to:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 155 of 169 (394883)
04-13-2007 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by mpb1
04-01-2007 7:42 PM


Re: The Internet is for ...
mpb1
So no matter how moral you or anyone else is, if the Bible is true, then all sin will be judged, and those who have not trusted in Jesus Christ as Lord and savior will receive the Judgment of God because they refused to accept the sacrifice of His Son.
And it is so excellent to be able to go through life without such fears of punishment making a mockery of the beauty of the world.
To tell the truth in the days when I read the bible and the sacrifice of Jesus I came to an entirely different conclusion about the meaning of the "accepting the sacrifice" to enter heaven. The sacrifice, I thought, was a test by God to see which people would be so immoral as to lay upon Christ their "sins" and so free themselves of responsibility for their so called crimes against God.
The proper response would be to refuse the gift and show responsibility for your actions and not to place them on the shoulders of an innocent, thereby showing your empathy and peaceful regard of others. But that is just me and I moved on from such things later in life.

" Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!!What a ride!"

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by GDR, posted 04-13-2007 10:28 PM sidelined has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 156 of 169 (394894)
04-13-2007 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by sidelined
04-13-2007 8:52 PM


Re: The Internet is for ...
sidelined writes:
To tell the truth in the days when I read the bible and the sacrifice of Jesus I came to an entirely different conclusion about the meaning of the "accepting the sacrifice" to enter heaven. The sacrifice, I thought, was a test by God to see which people would be so immoral as to lay upon Christ their "sins" and so free themselves of responsibility for their so called crimes against God.
This is a strawman. If that represented Christianity for me then I would have the same reaction as you.
Jesus said that there are two commands. Love God and love your neighbour. Who and what is our priority? Is it ourselves or is it God and others? Sin is about putting ourselves ahead, at the expense of others. We may pray all that we want for forgiveness, but it requires actual repentence. This requires true sorrow for having sinned, not just because we might have been caught, but that we are truly sorrowful for actually having, "done what we ought not to have done or for having not done what we ought to have done".
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by sidelined, posted 04-13-2007 8:52 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by sidelined, posted 04-13-2007 11:47 PM GDR has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 157 of 169 (394913)
04-13-2007 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by GDR
04-13-2007 10:28 PM


Re: The Internet is for ...
GDR
If that represented Christianity for me then I would have the same reaction about you.
I never said it represented Christianity for anyone but only my own humble take on the events.
Jesus said that there are two commands. Love God and love your neighbour. Who and what is our priority?
s
Indeed, and if Christ represented innocence, then what is the morality involved in having him pay for your sins thereby excusing yourself from taking responsibility as a person with a mature and reasoning mind would? The priority in my eyes would be to show God that the welfare of others is first and foremost and not my own selfish needs.
I would further assume that a loving god would find this to be the action of a worthy soul and hence to be rewarded.
Of course I long ago left such things that I find to be fantasy and no longer deal with it except in where it comes up in conversation. That said I am sorry if I caused you distress and discomfort.
We may pray all that we want for forgiveness, but it requires actual repentence
It never concerned me to be forgiven and I ,at that time, was of the mind that my punishment was mine to suffer and not some innocent person in my stead.
This requires true sorrow for having sinned, not just because we might have been caught, but that we are truly sorrowful for actually having, "done what we ought not to have done or for having not done what we ought to have done".
How does this release us from sorrow to brandish the supposedly only innocent man ever with our transgressions? The sorrow is not something that my point of view diminishes in the least but ,in fact, magnifies it to the point of humbling ourselves for the actions we personally consider wrong.
I came to the conclusion later on that the ""sins' we engage in are partial{ or total} regrets for actions that we later reflect upon when we learn to empathize with others and realize that we find those actions as grievous and distasteful. We are human and make errors of judgement as we grow and mature and it is to be expected that we cause others transgression however the errors are not sins and I have a far greater tolerance of people for this understanding.

" Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!!What a ride!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by GDR, posted 04-13-2007 10:28 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by GDR, posted 04-14-2007 2:10 AM sidelined has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 158 of 169 (394942)
04-14-2007 2:10 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by sidelined
04-13-2007 11:47 PM


Re: The Internet is for ...
sidelined writes:
Indeed, and if Christ represented innocence, then what is the morality involved in having him pay for your sins thereby excusing yourself from taking responsibility as a person with a mature and reasoning mind would?
But I'm not having Him pay for my sins. It was His choice to go to the cross. It is my choice as to how I respond. It is His desire that I reflect the love that He demonstrated on the cross to others. When I fail to do that why shouldn't I be genuinely sorry? It seems to me that it is simply lack of gratitude not to be sorry. I of course realize that it only makes sense if you believe that the Christian story is actually true.
sidelined writes:
The priority in my eyes would be to show God that the welfare of others is first and foremost and not my own selfish needs.
I would further assume that a loving god would find this to be the action of a worthy soul and hence to be rewarded.
I sort of agree but I don't see it as trying to show God anything. It is simply being what we are meant to be, which is a person who genuinely has a heart for others, but not for any particular reward.
sidelined writes:
Of course I long ago left such things that I find to be fantasy and no longer deal with it except in where it comes up in conversation. That said I am sorry if I caused you distress and discomfort.
I certainly felt no distress or discomfort. There are a number of things that a number of Christians believe that I find to be fantasy as well. We all have faith, it's just a matter of where we want to put it.
sidelined writes:
How does this release us from sorrow to brandish the supposedly only innocent man ever with our transgressions? The sorrow is not something that my point of view diminishes in the least but ,in fact, magnifies it to the point of humbling ourselves for the actions we personally consider wrong.
Sure I should be humbled when I screw up. Christianity teaches that we are to have humble and contrite hearts.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by sidelined, posted 04-13-2007 11:47 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by sidelined, posted 04-14-2007 2:24 PM GDR has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 159 of 169 (395006)
04-14-2007 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by GDR
04-14-2007 2:10 AM


Re: The Internet is for ...
GDR
But I'm not having Him pay for my sins. It was His choice to go to the cross. It is my choice as to how I respond.
Yes and your choice is to relinquish the responsibility onto someone else's shoulder to avoid punishment for your transgressions by shifting the burden to another. This is an immoral action in my view and as such I would take the other choice and refuse the offer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by GDR, posted 04-14-2007 2:10 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 160 of 169 (395022)
04-14-2007 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by sidelined
04-14-2007 2:24 PM


Re: The Internet is for ...
sidelined writes:
Yes and your choice is to relinquish the responsibility onto someone else's shoulder to avoid punishment for your transgressions by shifting the burden to another.
I am not relinquishing any of the responsibility.
Hypothetical: I get drunk one night and run over my neighbour's cat. We would agree that the right thing to do is go to my neighbour and confess. However, we can also go further and ask for forgiveness. If the neighbour forgives me it doesn't make me any more or less responsible. In either case I am fully responsible. The difference is that by asking forgiveness, and being given it, the relationship with the neighbour has been restored.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by sidelined, posted 04-14-2007 2:24 PM sidelined has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by ringo, posted 04-15-2007 4:50 PM GDR has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 161 of 169 (395218)
04-15-2007 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by GDR
04-14-2007 4:02 PM


Re: The Internet is for ...
GDR writes:
Hypothetical: I get drunk one night and run over my neighbour's cat. We would agree that the right thing to do is go to my neighbour and confess. However, we can also go further and ask for forgiveness.
That's a poor analogy. According to conventional Christian dogma, a perfect stranger comes along and takes the blame for you. That's dishonest on his part - and dishonest on your part if you let him do it.

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 Message 160 by GDR, posted 04-14-2007 4:02 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by GDR, posted 04-15-2007 5:04 PM ringo has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 162 of 169 (395220)
04-15-2007 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by ringo
04-15-2007 4:50 PM


Re: The Internet is for ...
Ringo writes:
That's a poor analogy. According to conventional Christian dogma, a perfect stranger comes along and takes the blame for you. That's dishonest on his part - and dishonest on your part if you let him do it.
I can't say as I agree. Conventional Christian dogma does not see God as a perfect stranger. Secondly, I certainly didn't suggest that He is taking the blame. I will always be the one to blame. It is just that if I am genuinely remorseful and ask for forgiveness, then that forgiveness is granted.
By the way, are you about to tell us where Stubblejump is? My home town, a long time ago, is Medicine Hat.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by ringo, posted 04-15-2007 4:50 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by ringo, posted 04-15-2007 5:27 PM GDR has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 163 of 169 (395223)
04-15-2007 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by GDR
04-15-2007 5:04 PM


Re: The Internet is for ...
GDR writes:
I certainly didn't suggest that He is taking the blame. I will always be the one to blame.
I was speaking of the conventional Christian dogma that "Jesus died for our sins", "paid the debt for us", etc. If I understand what sidelined was trying to say, allowing Him to do that would be dishonest on our part.
Taking the blame means taking your own punishment, paying your own debts. If we are truly responsible, then the dogma is meaningless.
By the way, are you about to tell us where Stubblejump is?
Regina. The stubble's a little higher here than in Medicine Hat.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by GDR, posted 04-15-2007 5:04 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by GDR, posted 04-15-2007 7:07 PM ringo has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 164 of 169 (395237)
04-15-2007 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by ringo
04-15-2007 5:27 PM


Re: The Internet is for ...
Ringo writes:
I was speaking of the conventional Christian dogma that "Jesus died for our sins", "paid the debt for us", etc. If I understand what sidelined was trying to say, allowing Him to do that would be dishonest on our part.
Christ's dying for our sins does not absolve us of responsibility or blame. In my cat example, I am still the one who killed the cat and have to live with that fact, it is still me that has to face my neighbour, it is still up to me to do whatever I can to make it right with my neighbour by buying a new cat, (or whatever else I might be able to do)
The fact still remains however that I allowed myself to get drunk and drive, and as a result I killed the cat. (This is still hypothetical by the way. )In Christian parlance I have sinned. Christ's death gives me a mechanism whereby, if I am truly remorseful and fully intend to do better, then I can confess, repent, ask for forgiveness and be given a fresh start with God.
As I see it, the important thing is the condition of my heart. If I am unable to confess, repent and acknowledge that I need forgiveness then my heart remains hard.
Ringo writes:
Taking the blame means taking your own punishment, paying your own debts. If we are truly responsible, then the dogma is meaningless.
Not at all. Regardless of what I believe about any deity there is still my neighbour and probably the law to deal with for drunk driving. A Christian does not pay any less of a price than an Atheist. Christ's death gives us a mechanism whereby we can make ourselves right with Him again by agreeing that we are responsible and by being truly remorseful.
Ringo writes:
Regina. The stubble's a little higher here than in Medicine Hat.
Nice town. Sorry about the Pats. (Assuming you follow jr. hockey.)

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by ringo, posted 04-15-2007 5:27 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by ringo, posted 04-15-2007 7:27 PM GDR has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 165 of 169 (395242)
04-15-2007 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by GDR
04-15-2007 7:07 PM


Re: The Internet is for ...
GDR writes:
Christ's death gives us a mechanism whereby we can make ourselves right with Him again by agreeing that we are responsible and by being truly remorseful.
Whether making ourselves right with God or right with our neighbour, the Christ-crutch "mechanism" is still a way of squirming out of our responsibility. Better to stand before God and say, "It's not that I don't appreciate your Son's 'sacrifice', but I'll take what's coming to me anyway."
(Which is why I don't believe in the whole hocus-pocus "mechanism".)
Sorry about the Pats.
They have their ups and downs. Saskatchewan is next-year country.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by GDR, posted 04-15-2007 7:07 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by GDR, posted 04-15-2007 9:22 PM ringo has replied

  
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