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Author Topic:   Did the sky really go dark as biblical inerrantists insist?
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 104 of 113 (395698)
04-17-2007 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by nator
04-17-2007 8:42 AM


Saints Came to Life
The author of Mark didn't include the drama of the earth shaking, darkness or saints.
Mark 15:37-39
And Jesus uttered a loud cry, and breathed His last.
And the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.
When the centurion, who was standing right in front of Him, saw the way He breathed His last, he said, "Truly this man was the Son of God!"
The author of Matthew embellished on Mark. The saints or holy people who had died, didn't come back as zombies or ghosts. They were raised as in brought back to life supposedly. It is the same word used in Mark when Jesus said: "But after I have been raised, I will go ahead of you to Galilee." (14:28)
Satire
Matthew 27:50-54
And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.
Now the centurion, and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, "Truly this was the Son of God!"
The authors of Matthew and Luke also alluded to the dead being brought back to life even earlier in the book with Jesus saying: ...the BLIND RECEIVE SIGHT and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the POOR HAVE THE GOSPEL PREACHED TO THEM. (Matthew 11:5 & Luke 7:22)
Investigator
Luke 23:44-47
It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness fell over the whole land until the ninth hour, because the sun was obscured; and the veil of the temple was torn in two.
And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT." Having said this, He breathed His last.
Now when the centurion saw what had happened, he began praising God, saying, "Certainly this man was innocent."
All three books have the portion where Jesus answers the question of marriage after the resurrection, which deals with the dead beinging brought back to life. (Mark 12:18-27; Matthew 22:23-33; Luke 20:27-38)
The author of Luke, who supposedly investigated what had been said or written, left out the part about the shaking earth and the dead rising. Odds are they didn't happen.
Why the author of Luke decided to add the darkness is hard to say. It may have been a literary device denoting God's displeasure or had become part of the story to show God's displeasure and he couldn't disprove it.
Darkness doesn't have to be pitch black and cloud cover doesn't have to denote a storm front. Big fluffy clouds can obscure the sun.
That's where you're left with the plain text, IMO.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by nator, posted 04-17-2007 8:42 AM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Juraikken, posted 04-19-2007 6:27 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 106 of 113 (396216)
04-19-2007 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Juraikken
04-19-2007 6:27 AM


Darkened Sky
The topic concerns the darkened sky which was only mentioned by the author of Luke.
The book of Mark is considered to have been written first. (65-80CE)
The book of Matthew (80-100CE) was possibly next and some feel it was written as a satire.
The author of Luke (80-130CE) describes himself as an investigator.
Even an investigative writer will use literary devices or creative writing to make an interesting text.
Since Mark didn't mention the shaking earth or the darkened sky, the possibility exists that these were added respectively by the authors' of Matthew and Luke to show God's displeasure or had been added as the story of Jesus was passed down through the years.
The book of John (90-120CE) is also a later writing than Mark and the author seems more concerned with prophecy fulfillment.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Juraikken, posted 04-19-2007 6:27 AM Juraikken has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Garrett, posted 04-27-2007 2:53 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 109 of 113 (397758)
04-27-2007 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Garrett
04-27-2007 2:53 PM


My Bad
quote:
Are you claiming that only Luke mentions the darkness or splitting vernacular hairs about the difference between "darkened sky" and "darkness over the land"?
Actually it's called a mistake.
I was focusing on the dead people and the sun being obscured.
So I am in error. All three mentioned the darkness and only Luke stated that the sun was being obscured, which my point was when I first mentioned that was that it could have been cloud cover and not necessarily an elipse.
In spite of the error, the phrase "darkness over all the land" could still be a literary device to signify God's displeasure.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Garrett, posted 04-27-2007 2:53 PM Garrett has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 110 of 113 (398109)
04-29-2007 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Garrett
04-27-2007 3:05 PM


Re: Extrabiblical Evidence Darkness
Not sure if you're still responding to me or not, but here are my thoughts.
quote:
1.)Origen (3rd century) mentioned a statement by the Roman historian Phlegon, who described the darkness event (Against Celsus II.33).
In Contra Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 33; Origen first asks this question:
Now to this question, although we are able to show the striking and miraculous character of the events which befell Him, yet from what other source can we furnish an answer than from the Gospel narratives, which state that "there was an earthquake, and that the rocks were split asunder, and the tombs opened, and the veil of the temple rent in twain from top to bottom, and that darkness prevailed in the day-time, the sun failing to give light?"
His conclusion, though, is less than definitive:
And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place, Phlegon too, I think, has written in the thirteenth or fourteenth book of his Chronicles."
quote:
2.)Tertullian also references not only the event, but the fact that it had been recorded in the records when speaking to a pagan audience he sai "you yourselves have the account of the world-portent still in your archives" (Apology XXI). There is no record of anyone challenging that assertion.
Tertullian's Apology was aimed at Roman rulers.
Rulers of the Roman Empire, if, seated for the administration of justice on your lofty tribunal, under the gaze of every eye, and occupying there all but the highest position in the state, you may not openly inquire into and sift before the world the real truth in regard to the charges made against the Christians;...
The purpose of his writings were to defend Christianity and persuade Roman authorities to stop persecuting Christians. Since the persecutions didn't stop, I would conclude that they weren't convinced.
quote:
5.)Eusebius, a 4th century historian, also referenced first century accounts:
"Jesus Christ underwent his passion in the 18th year of Tiberius [32 AD]. Also at that time in another Greek compendium we find an event recorded in these words: "The sun was eclipsed, Bithynia was struck by an earthquake, and in the city of Nicaea many buildings fell." All these things happened to occur during the Lord's passion. In fact, Phlegon, too, a distinguished reckoner of Olympiads, wrote more on these events in his 13th book, saying this: "Now, in the fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad [AD 32], a great eclipse of the sun occurred at the sixth hour [noon] that excelled every other before it, turning the day into such darkness of night that the stars could be seen in heaven, and the earth moved in Bithynia, toppling many buildings in the city of Nicaea" (Chronicle, vol II).
Actually your clip from Eusebius (c. 275-339) counters your clips from Africanus and Philipon.
The quote from the compendium:
The sun was eclipsed, Bithynia was struck by an earthquake, and in the city of Nicaea many buildings fell.
The quote from Phlegon:
Now, in the fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad [AD 32], a great eclipse of the sun occurred at the sixth hour [noon] that excelled every other before it, turning the day into such darkness of night that the stars could be seen in heaven, and the earth moved in Bithynia, toppling many buildings in the city of Nicaea
Africanus and Philipon seemed to have jump to conclusions concerning the evidence as opposed to the evidence making the statement.
Also if we look at the 4th year of the 202nd Olympiad, I've found that the fourth year runs as follows: Jun 32AD to Jul 33AD.
As I understand it, the passover or passion would have taken place in April. So if it was April of 32AD, solar eclipse not involved. If it was April of 33 AD, the total solar eclipse for that year was in March and didn't include Jerusalem.
Supposedly the only eclipse visible in Jerusalem would have been in November of 29AD.
The extrabiblical evidence doesn't support a total solar eclipse happening during the passover of 32 or 33AD.
The comments attributed to Thallus don't specify when the events happened or that they all happened at once in the same area; and as I've shown the comments attributed to Phlegon also do not support an eclipse during the passover or that the events mentioned all happened at once in the same area.
I feel that if it wasn't a literary device, the darkness could simply have been cloud cover. Not really something worthy of recording for posterity, unless they regularly recorded daily weather.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Garrett, posted 04-27-2007 3:05 PM Garrett has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Coragyps, posted 04-29-2007 11:45 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 112 of 113 (398157)
04-29-2007 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Coragyps
04-29-2007 11:45 AM


Re: Extrabiblical Evidence Darkness
Here is a color version. It looks pretty close.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Coragyps, posted 04-29-2007 11:45 AM Coragyps has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by PaulK, posted 04-29-2007 1:26 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
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