Problems with Genesis Creation

Wrong again. Observed Instances of SpeciationA specific example:

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Boraas (1983) reported the induction of multicellularity in a strain of Chlorella pyrenoidosa (since reclassified as C. vulgaris) by predation. He was growing the unicellular green alga in the first stage of a two stage continuous culture system as for food for a flagellate predator, Ochromonas sp., that was growing in the second stage. Due to the failure of a pump, flagellates washed back into the first stage. Within five days a colonial form of the Chlorella appeared. It rapidly came to dominate the culture. The colony size ranged from 4 cells to 32 cells. Eventually it stabilized at 8 cells. This colonial form has persisted in culture for about a decade. The new form has been keyed out using a number of algal taxonomic keys. They key out now as being in the genus Coelosphaerium, which is in a different family from Chlorella.

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A whole new family! Why on Earth would you think any of those things would be expected to happen under evolution? In the evolutionary model, elephants didn't evolve from dogs, nor fish from giraffes, nor birds from lizards. Organisms evolve from organisms that are similar, not from ones that are radically different. And the proof of this is that, as you go back in time through the fossil record, all the organisms get more similar to each other. Ultimately you'd reach a point where all organisms were the same; the same as the original common ancestor.Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.

Actually the simplest solution is God did it. It has fewer syllables and fewer letters than evolution. Magic is the art of deception. Satan is the father of lies. God can not lie; therefore He does not use magic. God does perform miracles, however. Like I’ve said before, God created the laws of physics and can suspend them when He sees fit.

Actually God is the ultimate unnecessary entity.

I agree with this entire statement except, The evolution you are referring to supposedly happened in the past. There were no scientists present to observe molecules to man evolution. The only evidence we have exists here in the present. I don’t disagree with any of the evidence or any of the facts; I disagree with your assumptions. Like it or not anything that happens in the past must be accepted on faith. For example my parents tell me that I was born on a certain date, at a certain place. Although I was there, I had no concept of time or geography. I now accept on faith that my parents are telling me the truth. I also accept on faith that the Bible is the word of God, namely because it says it’s the word of God and because I have yet to find an error in it. You on the other hand accept evolution on faith. You’ve only witnessed variation within a kind. You must imagine extrapolation of that into the past to imagine common descent.C.S. Lewis said: In the end you must confront C.S Lewis’s Trilemma argument: If through this you come to the same logical conclusion of all of the other followers of Jesus have come to, then as a follower of Jesus you must ask yourself how Jesus viewed scripture. It is clear from reading about Jesus in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John that Jesus held a straightforward view of scripture. In other words literal history should be taken as literal history and metaphor should be taken as metaphor. From the context Genesis is written as literal history. I’ve listed out the steps here in a matter of minutes of how to go from a non-believer to a Bible believing Christian, but this process took me 12 years. I wish you the best.

You seem to be ignorant of what the Razor actually states.It is not the simplest solution is the correct one, is it the least necessarily complicated answer is the correct one, and the supernatural is one of the most complicated answers ever.

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I also accept on faith that the Bible is the word of God, namely because it says it’s the word of God and because I have yet to find an error in it.

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No, you do not WISH to find a error in it. Btw, your belief in a young Earth requires God to be a liar. And you have a long, long, long list of rebuttals to address

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To paraphrase: no. The mutations in the RNA are causing it to devolve. These changes make it unrecognizable to the host cell.

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This shows a ignorance of evolution on a scale rarely seen. Devolution would require a species to change into a form detrimental to itself in accordance with the environmental pressures. As the flu is clearly NOT doing that it is not devolving. Environmental pressures can force a species to evolve into a simpler organism that is better suited to its environment. Just because you do not understand evolution does not mean you speak with alleged authority.

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Viruses have since mutated and degenerated to what we see today.

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That makes even less sense. Your last claim said that because of little genetic data, that a reduction is devolving, degenerating. Yet mutations, specifically into more dangerous kinds of viruses and bacteria would require additional genetic data. Your web of lies is not carefully maintained, or maintained at all.

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It was after the fall that these viruses and bacteria began to cause diseases.

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Again ignorance. Animals committed no sin yet there are diseases that only affect certain animals. Anyone who uses AiG explicitly admits their ignorance.

I really don't, since it's both based on false premises and represents a false dilemma.But the thing is - even taking the "trilemma" on its face, it doesn't hold up. Lewis doesn't give any reason why its wrong to think Jesus was a liar or a lunatic. It's just implicit in the trilemma that if you make either of those two claims, Western society in the time of Lewis would have ostracised you.It's little more than a threat. The trilemma is basically "Ok, so Jesus has to be liar, lunatic, or Lord; plus, if you answer either of the first two, I'll fucking kill you. So which is it? Lord? Yeah, I thought you might say that."That's not the only place that it falls flat, but if it came to it, I'd have no problem saying that Jesus was either a liar or a lunatic, or both. Why would I?By the way - is there some reason you're not responding to rebuttals?

Hey JJ, and welcome to the fray (I know this is a little late).What this is going to come down to is whether or not you are willing to have a detailed discussion about any of the points that were raised by Nuggin in post 10.This pile on that is happening seems to me to be extremely confrontational and is not a good way for anyone to learn anything. Are you interested in learning or perhaps teaching others the errors of their ways?The best way to do this is to focus on a single point and hash it out. This jumping around between points is very confusing and will solve nothing but making everyone involved very irritated.Now that you have given your single post responses to all 20 points, could you choose a single one that you want to discuss further? If you wanted to take it a step further, you could even ask for a 'Great Debate' thread to be opened where it would just be you and one other debating one of the points.This thread is really going downhill in my opinion and we need to get back some focus somehow.

Nor does evolution claim that this should happen.I don't want to take this thread completely off topic, but I'll likely revive on of the "What do you by 'kind'" threads.Perhaps you can do better than your predicessors in giving that word a definition.I expect to see you over there.

If it's that simple, please demonstrate one act of creation for us right now. Please explain in detail the functionality of God's mechanisms for Creation. Or point out where exactly God was sitting when he performed this great hocus pocus.None of that is simple.If you're idea of simple is "fewer letters" try this.NO

By your account, you understand how a computer works, but since you were not around when Steve Jobs and Woz were working on the first Apple, then it was done by magic.That's a load of horse crap.The same technology that drove their computer still drives our computers.
The inverse is true as well.
The same technology that drives our computers drove theirs.The processes we see which cause evolution currently are the same processes which caused evolution previously.There is no need to say "It was magic".

Would that argument still hold water if it was about someone else who claimed to be God?

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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

Lewis Trilemma was always fun on long cold evenings and it was neat watching the Lower School kids try to use it in arguments with the older Middle School kids. Of course it is also totally irrelevant to this topic as it was in those long ago debates.The Genesis Myths are simply wrong. That is not even subject to question except by an act of Willful Ignorance. All that is need is a quick look and anyone who is not in a state of complete denial of reality can see that the Earth was NOT created before the Sun.If someone wishes to believe in falsehoods and delusions, they are of course, free to believe in one of the Genesis myths, or the Iroquois Myths or the Egyptian Myths or any of the other equally wrong tales.That is their privilege.However the Genesis Creation Myths are still just myths, and everyone but the Christian Cult of Ignorance knows that.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This is a long thread, and its become splintered, so I'd like to go back and condense JJ's points so that people don't have to scan 10 pages to find them all.Note: I am obviously paraphrasing here, since this post would be a mile long if I didn't.My Points ---------------------- His Response
1)Comparitive Religeon ----------- other religions are wrong because I believe the Bible
2) Anthropology ----------------- flat denial of the question
3) Paleo-Anthropology ----------- Early homonid forms are descended from apes
4) Paleontology ----------------- I don't understand dating techniques
5) Paleontology 2---------------- The Flood happened millions of years ago
6) Paleontology 3---------------- After the Flood there was an Ice Age
7) Nuclear Physics---------------- I like to use short tools to measure long things
8) Radio-Carbon----------------- I like to use long tools to measure short things
9) Hydro-dynamics ---------------The flood happened because of volcanos
10) Conservation of Matter---------The water got magicked up by God
11) Magic! ----------------------God is magic! It's all Magic!
12) Dendrochronology-------------Trees grow new rings every time they get wet
13) Incest------------------------Noah did it with his daughter
14) Non-existance of fossils --------dinosaurs lived in special magic areas
15) Organization of Fossils ---------primative animals sink while modern animals float
16) Swimming Dinos --------------the flood killed all them but not the whales
17) Bio-diversity & Bio-isolation -----I don't know
18) Viruses-----------------------they evolve
19) Experimentation----------------we can't, cuz creationism is magic
20) Occam's Razor-----------------Unknowable, unfathomable magic is less complex than demonstratable biological mechanismsI'm sure JJ will protest this, but since we are 100 messages or so in and he has yet to respond to message 9 even, I doubt it will happen too soon.For those of you reading along, you may notice that some answers - particularly #3 and #18 are oddly pro-evolution. And #17 is, finally, a simple admitting of a lack of knowledge.

Those are impressive calculations. So how many Tyrannosaurus rexes and other theropods have you studied to know their eating patterns? (Obviously that’s a rhetorical question, so please don’t respond) The answer is zero. From fossil remains we know that most dinosaurs were the size of chickens and the average dinosaur size was that of a dog. There were very few that got to the size seen in Jurassic Park. In fact velociraptors were about 6 feet long and 1.5 feet tall, not 6 feet tall and 24 feet long. Another point you are overlooking is Noah would have taken young adolescent animals which would have been the perfect age for breeding after departing from the ark. These young dinosaurs would be much smaller and eat much less than the dinosaurs you mentioned. It’s also likely that Noah took eggs of large dinosaurs, which would require no food until after it hatched.The final part of the puzzle that most Evolutionists are unaware of within the Creation Model is speciation and variation within a created kind. A created kind is a grouping of living things that can reproduce to give fertile offspring. We can do experiments in the present to show that all dogs and wolves are in the same “dog” kind. All dogs and wolves can interbreed to produce fertile offspring. From this we can conclude that only one pair of dogs exited Noah’s Ark.Unfortunately I’ve never observed the mating patterns of dinosaurs, so I’m unable to classify which dinosaurs fall into created kind. Of the 668 named dinosaurs there are likely only 55 kinds.On top of ALL that the size of Noah’s ark has yet to be mentioned. Genesis 6:15 says it was 300 x 50 x 30 cubits which is equivalent to 460 x 75 x 44 feet. That’s 1.5 million cubic feet or comparable to modern day ocean liners. On a side note a Boeing 747 is only 231’10” in length.Please don’t forget that only land vertebrates were on the Ark. It was not necessary for Noah to take plants, bugs or sea creatures. Of all of the “kinds” of land vertebrates experts say there are only about 8,000 created kinds. So about 16,000 total animals were on the Ark. If you want we can make it 17,000 to account for “clean” animals, but those were mostly birds. There was so much room on the Ark, in fact, that if every human living at that time wished to be saved from God’s wrath there would have been room for them. This is consistent with the current model of salvation through Jesus Christ. When He died on the cross He took on all of the sins that had ever been committed and all sins yet to be committed. In the beginning Adam had a simple choice to eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or obey God and not eat it. In Noah’s time the people had a simple choice: to get on the Ark and receive salvation or stay off and perish. The same is true of everyone living today. We have a simple choice of accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior or denying Him. John 14:6 says: Ref: Were Dinosaurs on Noah’s Ark? AFA Journal | Answers in Genesis
Two Fighting Dinosaurs? | Answers in Genesis