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Author Topic:   Intelligent Design (ID) Creationist(s) - (Michael Behe, the prime example)
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 47 (396112)
04-18-2007 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by ringo
04-18-2007 7:22 PM


Re: Earth Is Not A Creature
Repeating a falsehood does not make it so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by ringo, posted 04-18-2007 7:22 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by ringo, posted 04-18-2007 11:00 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 18 by Minnemooseus, posted 04-18-2007 11:37 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17844
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 17 of 47 (396121)
04-18-2007 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Buzsaw
04-18-2007 10:42 PM


Re: Earth Is Not A Creature
Buzsaw writes:

Repeating a falsehood does not make it so.

So stop repeating falsehoods about young creatures.

Your falsehoods are so similar to the YECs' falsehoods that there is no practical difference. What's the practical difference between the guy who thinks he's Napoleon and the guy who thinks he's Teddy Roosevelt? Delusion is delusion.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Buzsaw, posted 04-18-2007 10:42 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3797
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 18 of 47 (396149)
04-18-2007 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Buzsaw
04-18-2007 10:42 PM


Revive the "What variety of creationist is Buzsaw?" "Great Debate"?
This YEC vs YCC belongs there.

Between my slowness in replying (most of the problem) and your temporary retirement, the thing fell idle.

I did make a short reply that fell by the wayside. I seem to recall having another reply stored somewhere on some hard drive, back from one night that the forum wasn't accepting input.

Moose


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Buzsaw, posted 04-18-2007 10:42 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Buzsaw, posted 04-19-2007 4:46 PM Minnemooseus has not yet responded

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4238 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 19 of 47 (396232)
04-19-2007 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Buzsaw
04-17-2007 10:38 PM


Stand firm
Buzz:
Imo, it's Jar and you people who muddy the waters doing your best to rob our ligitimate and logically proper logo and applying it to your secularist NS & RM model.

Reminds me of the story I heard yesturday about Alexander Solzhenitsyn.

He was forced into a concentration camp by Stalin for daring to question and critique the system.

While digging ditches he lost all hope in justice. He decided to throw down his shovel even though he knew the gaurds would beat him to death. Why live through this cruel reality?

A man on one side or the other used his shovel to draw a cross in the dirt. Solzhenitsyn realized for the first time that his troubles were temporary. He saw 'inhuman faith' in justice's ultimate triumph.

17 "Be on your guard against men; they will hand you over to the local councils and flog you in their synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. 21 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Buzsaw, posted 04-17-2007 10:38 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Archer Opteryx, posted 04-19-2007 1:44 PM Rob has responded

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1987 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 20 of 47 (396276)
04-19-2007 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Rob
04-19-2007 10:22 AM


Re: 'Stand firm' indeed
Rob:

Reminds me of the story I heard yesturday about Alexander Solzhenitsyn.

He was forced into a concentration camp by Stalin for daring to question and critique the system.

Here we go again. :rolleyes:

Most people see a difference between a free exchange of ideas and imprisonment in a Soviet gulag. But not Rob. In the weird Parallel Universe of Rob, it's the apex of torture to have people actually disagree with you in a forum you voluntarily joined in search of a debate.

To hear Rob tell it, criticism of any view he espouses--no matter how badly reasoned or stated the view may be even by his own admission--is injustice on a par with imprisonment in a Soviet gulag, stoning in a Middle Eastern courtyard, and dismemberment in the Circus Maximus.

Somehow, I doubt the real victims of persecutions would see it this way. A real martyr would likely think Rob and other message board whiners have it pretty easy.

Imagine sadistic Roman guards offering victims strapped to a stake as lions bear down on them a choice of sufferings. The guards tell their hapless victims that instead of this present predicament they may instead endure the unimaginable suffering of being disagreed with on an Internet forum. How long do you think these poor people would agonize over that nightmarish dilemma?

My guess is that most would snap up the offer on the spot.

Rob: if you want to know about real persecution, move to China or North Korea. I am not kidding. It is entirely possible to arrange this. People in those places are enduring real censorship and face serious consequences for themselves and their families for any kind of dissent. If you want to buck up the morale of a comrade, you can get yourself into prisons there (it's easy to do) where any cheer you can offer would be welcome to your unjustly abused cell mates. If you intend to congratulate yourself on your sufferings, those are excellent places to begin earning the right.

Until you've done that, cut the whining. You operate in a free society where views may be openly expressed. You benefit from this freedom every day--then complain about the very plurality of views it allows as if it were repression. What a crock.

You're no martyr. You're just spoiled.

Grow up.

_

Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Rob, posted 04-19-2007 10:22 AM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Rob, posted 04-19-2007 2:10 PM Archer Opteryx has responded

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4238 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 21 of 47 (396283)
04-19-2007 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Archer Opteryx
04-19-2007 1:44 PM


Re: 'Stand firm' indeed
I agree with pretty much everything you've said Archer. Even the part about me being spoiled; there's no doubt about that.

the fact is that there is a connection between physical persecution and cover up, and intellectual persecution and cover up.

Ok...so you don't want to hear it from me... I can understand that!

But why did the Harvard audience 'boo' Alexander Solzhenitsyn?

He told Malcomb Muggeridge that what happened at Harvard, hurt him more than all his years in the Gulag.

The diminished capacity and cynical snobbery of a spoiled and opulent culture, is a more dastardly enemy of truth than shear physical brutality ever could be. So don't underestimate the sin of the common intellectual elitism that is so widespread here in the West.

It's insidious allurement that tempts us to think we are hurting no-one is devlishly false. IMHO...

And for the record, I am not attempting to drag this topic away. I was only throwing some encouragement Buzz's way. Carry on...

Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Edited by Rob, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Archer Opteryx, posted 04-19-2007 1:44 PM Archer Opteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Archer Opteryx, posted 04-19-2007 4:06 PM Rob has responded

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1987 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 22 of 47 (396318)
04-19-2007 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Rob
04-19-2007 2:10 PM


Re: Debate, Acronyms, etc.
the fact is that there is a connection between physical persecution and cover up, and intellectual persecution and cover up.

No doubt about it, Rob.

Open debate is not a cover-up, though. Anything can emerge. That's the thing about it that bugs you.

Of course, it's also the thing about it you want to exploit.

It's no secret that pain sometimes results from open debate. That's why a certain decorum is called for to keep an open society functioning. Even so, most people in the world will gladly opt for the pains of freedom over the pains of oppression.

Just be accurate, if you must discuss it, about the kind of pain you are enduring. It's a free-society pain. You are not in a gulag. You are not in the company of those who are daily arrested or executed for what you believe. I hope you never are; no one should have to endure that. Out of respect for those who do endure it, though, if nothing else, please quit equating message-board annoyances to that level of sacrifice.

Sorry about my level of passion in the last post. As you can imagine, these are not abstract matters in my neighbourhood.

Ok...so you don't want to hear it from me...

If an idea is worthwhile I don't much care where it comes from. If an idea is dumb I don't much care where it comes from, either.

It is nice to see a Rob thought coming from Rob himself, though, rather than being lobbed over a wall covered with literary scraps. You've made some noticeable changes lately in that department. The change in style couldn't have been easy but it makes a big difference.

Back to Buz, as you say.

For my part I don't see why Buz can't choose his own acronym. There's YEC, there's OEC, there's ID. There can well be more. For me it just testifies to the growing diversity (fragmentation?) of anti-evolution belief. Biblical literalists, under environmental stress as a species since the 1870s, are searching for the mutation that will ensure the survival of the fundamentalist genome.

Still, Ringo and others have a point from the scientific perspective about the Y. Saying 'I'm a YCC not a YEC' is not the abracadabra to get Buz out of science problems. He's still denying vast body of science knowledge.

_


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Rob, posted 04-19-2007 2:10 PM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Rob, posted 04-19-2007 6:42 PM Archer Opteryx has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 47 (396336)
04-19-2007 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Minnemooseus
04-18-2007 11:37 PM


Re: Revive the "What variety of creationist is Buzsaw?" "Great Debate"?
Thanks Moose. Sometimes Ringo seems to have the need for the last word no matter what sense he makes so I'll leave off arguing frivolity. I don't want to spread myself into more threads than I can manage responses to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Minnemooseus, posted 04-18-2007 11:37 PM Minnemooseus has not yet responded

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4238 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 24 of 47 (396366)
04-19-2007 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Archer Opteryx
04-19-2007 4:06 PM


Re: Debate, Acronyms, etc.
Arccher:
Open debate is not a cover-up, though. Anything can emerge. That's the thing about it that bugs you.

You are partially correct Archer. Allow me to explain myself in this open debate on the floor of the senate here.

My dear countryman, lend me your ears!

Open debate can become... the biggest coverup of all time!

That is why Churchill said something to the effect of, 'Democracy is the worst form of government; except for all the others'. So let's bear that in mind please...

Mob rule is the worst kind of coverup for the most duplicitous motives. And it is done in the name of truth by those who deny that truth exists.

That's using the Lord's name in vain for those of you who have never seen the connection before. It is plain blasphemy. And if not in the Divine sense, then that of the intellectual. but the reality is the same. Intellect is a sacred honor bestowed to all men.

And so we find ourselves in this free nation; theists and nontheists alike, struggling to maintain the respect that each of us deserves, but more importantly, the respect that the subject and object of our discussion deserves.

You speak of me being spoiled. I lay down my pride at such a proclamation of truth. Will you honor the same?

I am not the only one here at EVC who is guilty of playing with words for the shear game that it can become. I despise myself for it, since it is I who endeavor to carry a name that I am not worthy of.

Archer:

Just be accurate, if you must discuss it, about the kind of pain you are enduring.

:laugh:

I don't think you understand Archer...

The pain I am suffering is in admitting to myself and to you, that in this 'free' society where virtually anything goes now, the pain is in knowing how easily tempted we are to opt for the easy way out!

With freedom comes responsibility. And responsibility requires moral fortitude. I nee only point to thr fall of Rome.

Archer:

You've made some noticeable changes lately in that department. The change in style couldn't have been easy but it makes a big difference.

Is it that obvious?

It has been the hardest thing I have ever gone through. but I didn't want to do it. I wanted to cut the intellectual legs off of my oponents. It is Christ who reminds me that it is not about that. It is about loving people so that they know what you say is real.

And since that is one of the last things that has motivated me for the last two years, I have suffered like you cannot know (even suicidal) because I saw my true self... and it isn't pretty.

So do not proceed to honor me Archer. It is almost a temptation in itself. It was God who made these changes. Pushing me here to EVC so that I could be tried in the fire and found wanting. And when He is through, perhpas I will be able to represent Him with more effectiveness. But in the words of Jesus, 'I have this baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is complete.'

Dying to self is the biggest journey, and the hardest road. And it is the only way back to the paradise mankind disowned.

Archer:

Even so, most people in the world will gladly opt for the pains of freedom over the pains of oppression.

So goes history and the fall of man. He trues to escape the perceived oppression of God, only to find himself in the even more unbearable confines of his own prideful prison. Or worse yet, that of his neighbors design (of which Naturalism says, 'Too bad'. survival of the fittest).

Got to go to work. It's just my opinion. You must think for yourself, and I actually respect that now.

;)

Edited by Rob, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Archer Opteryx, posted 04-19-2007 4:06 PM Archer Opteryx has not yet responded

  
AdminBuzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 47 (396417)
04-19-2007 9:54 PM


Topic Clarification
Though I'm a participant in this thread, I'm going to exercise my adiministrative role here to remind US all that the topic of this thread is Intelligent Design. As I understand Moose's OP the topic here is whether intelligent design applies primarily to the naturalistic Big Bang & evolution model or the Biblical creationism model.

Moose can weigh in here if this needs clarification.


Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Minnemooseus, posted 04-19-2007 10:33 PM AdminBuzsaw has not yet responded

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3797
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 26 of 47 (396422)
04-19-2007 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by AdminBuzsaw
04-19-2007 9:54 PM


Re: Topic Clarification
I presume that most believers in some variety of Godly creator think that, to some degree, intelligence and design were part of the creation process. As such it is fair (but off-topic) for Buzsaw to refer to himself as and intelligent design creationist.

{Added by edit: The "off-topic" comment above may well be a misstatement on my part. Please see down thread. - Moose}

Now, my experience is, that at least some young Earth creationists will latch onto anything they perceive to damage the theory of evolution / old Earthism, regardless of whether the same has any support towards YECism.

As I see it, the "true IDists" are those people that are trying to find and document physical evidence of design in nature. I like to call it "finding God's fingerprints". I strongly think that these active "true IDists" are NOT those of the YEC persuasion, but I may be wrong.

It seems that so far in this topic, the state of thought is that the Discovery Institute does not choose to or want to be pinned down on an opinion of what the Earth's age is. I certainly would like to see them pinned down on such, as I feel the matter of the Earth's age is most fundamental in the discussion of the origins of things Earth.

Or something like that.

I have just done a Google search of the Discovery Institute site for the phrase age of earth. I have a number of pages open, waiting to be read.

Moose

Edited by Minnemooseus, : Added disclaimer after 1st paragraph.


Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by AdminBuzsaw, posted 04-19-2007 9:54 PM AdminBuzsaw has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Buzsaw, posted 04-20-2007 12:09 AM Minnemooseus has responded
 Message 31 by PaulK, posted 04-20-2007 2:56 AM Minnemooseus has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 47 (396444)
04-20-2007 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Minnemooseus
04-19-2007 10:33 PM


Re: Topic Clarification
Moose writes:

I presume that most believers in some variety of Godly creator think that, to some degree, intelligence and design were part of the creation process. As such it is fair (but off-topic) for Buzsaw to refer to himself as and intelligent design creationist.

Moose in the OP of your thread you began thus:

Moose's OP opener:

NosyNed has been having a bit of a clash with Buzsaw on the topic title matter. Here NosyNed replies to a Buzsaw message (I quote the entire message):"

NN and I got into this debate which was leading the other thread off topic. My understanding was that you opened this thread at least partially so as for NN and I to be able to try and resolve our differences on our problem with the semantics of ID/DI et al that we were getting into.

Assuming that to be the case, NN and I had this exchange of arguments relative to what I assumed was one purpose for your opening the topic.
http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=10&t=196&m=1#7

Now you are trying to say that we Biblicalists think that somehow intelligence and design are part of the creation process when in fact intelligence and design are the primary factor/drive/absolutes of Biblical creationism and "to some degree" grossly undermines our position regarding ID.

What gives? Do we need yet another thread for our input to be considered on topic? :confused:


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Minnemooseus, posted 04-19-2007 10:33 PM Minnemooseus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Minnemooseus, posted 04-20-2007 1:03 AM Buzsaw has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 47 (396448)
04-20-2007 12:20 AM


The Biblical Creationist Perspective
Below I've changed some wording/revised Moose's statement to put as the Biblical Creationist sees it:

I presume that most (evolutionists) in some variety of (humanistic secularism) think that, to some degree, intelligence and design were part of the (NS/RM evolutionary) process.


Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Minnemooseus, posted 04-20-2007 1:29 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3797
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 29 of 47 (396450)
04-20-2007 1:03 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Buzsaw
04-20-2007 12:09 AM


Re: Topic Clarification
Moose writes:

I presume that most believers in some variety of Godly creator think that, to some degree, intelligence and design were part of the creation process. As such it is fair (but off-topic) for Buzsaw to refer to himself as and intelligent design creationist.

I think that, despite having started the topic, I'm confused about what the theme is and what is on or off-topic. :frazzled:

I think I'm mixing the Buzsaw YCC/YEC question into my thinking, which I've tried to direct to the "Great Debate" topic.

I think that in the above quoted I was trying to say that Buzsaw was on-topic some, but not on-topic enough. I now don't know what to think, but that statement may have been wrong, and Buzsaw's ID Creationism may indeed be on-topic.

Buz, the question is, are you trying to document how God did the intelligent design, such as Michael Behe and/or the Discover Institute is? If so, I would proclaim you to be a "true IDer", as defined in an earlier message. If not, then you are just going along for a ride on the ID bandwagon.

Dazed and confused Moose


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Buzsaw, posted 04-20-2007 12:09 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Buzsaw, posted 04-20-2007 10:08 PM Minnemooseus has not yet responded

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3797
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 30 of 47 (396451)
04-20-2007 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Buzsaw
04-20-2007 12:20 AM


Re: The Biblical Creationist Perspective
Moose writes:

I presume that most believers in some variety of Godly creator think that, to some degree, intelligence and design were part of the creation process.

The Buzsaw counterstatement:

Buzsaw writes:

I presume that most (evolutionists) in some variety of (humanistic secularism) think that, to some degree, intelligence and design were part of the (NS/RM evolutionary) process.

Buz, I was conceding that ID can be a part of a creationist belief. You seem to have taken it badly. Maybe my phrasing was bad.

By "believers in some variety of Godly creator" I was trying to include all creationists from the YEC's to the theistic evolutionists, and perhaps even the deists.

By "think that, to some degree, intelligence and design were part of the creation process" I was trying to say that the belief in the amount ID could range from major (with little evolution involved) to minor (with much evolution involved).

Now, what were you trying to say? I think it might be better stated more along the lines of:

I presume that most believers in some variety of humanistic secularism think that intelligence and design were NOT part of the NS/RM evolutionary process.

I would tend to agree with that statement. But this seems to be really getting disconnected from the topic theme.

Moose


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Buzsaw, posted 04-20-2007 12:20 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
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