Perceptions of Reality

Archer:I'll do my best...It's like this; you spoke of reality and truth in your last post as though it is inarguable and absolute. Where do you see it? Every example you can give is relative. The only place we can find an absolute is in the moral law. But when I speak of morality as absolute, you'd think I uttered the most sinful and insulting words imaginable judging by the way you guys tend to recoil.You've glorified and exalted the emperical (physical) world so high, that you have completely missed the fact that all things physical are relative. So what can we believe?The Bible discusses this plainly. By worshipping the creation and looking to it for truth, you have lost sight of what is ultimately real. Jesus said it more clearly (and offensively to you) than I ever did, 'Heaven and earth will pass away, but my Word will never pass away.'The reason we look to creation for truth, is that we assume ourselves to be the final authority and measure of all things. The Enlightenment Spirit is still with us.This is curious, since we admit rationally (Descartes), that we cannot know from our 'relative' perspective. Enter now Emannuel Kant, and abracadabra... belief in God is totally a leap of faith.So what do we do in response? We take David Hume and conclude that the only thing real is the material. The facts are the facts, and that is what reality is...Problem: The fact is... everyone dies. That is reality and that is life! What again is reality and life? It is death! That is the absolute. Why are we trying to stop that? And why do we see it as bad? If... it is just a fact!Counterperspective: John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"Archer:Seriously... what you just described sounds like 'the cross' to me. Mankind sacrificing absolute morality and truth at the alter of relativity.Archer:And how can morality take an inferior position?You see reality through the lens of your personal morality Archer. In our minds, we are God. And God is a threat to our kingdom. That's why we crucified Him.It's an alien invasion. The perfect analogy...God comes not in some hokey pokey space ship that is actually technologically inferior, but in the most sophisticated 'vessel' in the known universe.He says clearly and plainly that His kingdom is not of this world.He shows His true glory and nature durring the transfiguration (Which btw terrifies his disciples), and He says, 'be not afraid'.We then kill Him for daring to question our authority and trying to change our culture and traditions.And He raises from the dead, tells us to go and tell everyone who will listen, and promises to return.No modern sci-fi can compete. Their all artificial copies of the reality.

Anglagard:But reality is not subjective. Our delusions are subjective. Reality by definition is objective. One's perception of reality is not equal to reality.Reality is what it is.One way I know morality is absolute is when someone sprinkles my conscious, it resonates at a palpable level. It may not be rational in terms that can be expressed mathematically to our complete satisfaction. But I do believe that when someone tries to reason with me, and remind me that I am in 'the wrong' about some selfish ambition of my own, that they are right.In fact, my wife is looking over my shoulder right now to remind me that our son has 'tee ball' pictures this morning, and that my attention to this forum is at the moment selfish if not put into proper perspective. She is right... and I concede that to her now.Goodbye...

Ringo:Two wrongs don't make a right.But if what you say is true, then abortion is wrong and same sex marriage is an atrocity!What do you think now?Consensus has nothing to do with reality. Reality needs no apporval from us.

"This will just take a second dear... And please don't look at me that way."jar:Was Cho in his right mind?Did he do anything wrong when he killed those people? Or was he just dancing to his perception of reality and otherwise faultless?

Ringo:And yet you posit that contradiction as a 'real' reality.Sounds like Sarte's 'No Exit' to me...Do you realize he undertood in the end? He realized the contradiction on his deathbed. I think you'll see it before then, but I can't force it upon you.

jar:An irrelevant manmade imposition?

Ringo: That's a fact...I don't believe you have said anything either.

jar:Would I be doing anything that is 'actually' wrong if I didn't?

Archer:I know I have not listened enough. But you have not either...I agree that reality is absolute.

Archer:Man... you're totally misunderstanding me...Morality is part of reality. And reality is absolute.

Uh.. I have no idea what your talking about.And I only used the example you tore apart with some interesting math... so as to demsonstrate it's failure myself. I guess that means we agree that it doesn't hold water..., but I dunno...I presented the counterperspective as a more livable alternative to the weakness of the naturalist implications.Archer, we're just not on the same page, or map.Sorry...Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Rob:jar;So the rules governing any given system are absolute and determined by the creator/creators of said system? And any violation of them is an 'actual' offense of an objective essential to the system and demands justice?Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Maybe this will help in explaining why I believe morality to be absolute...Archer:Yes... and that is why 'wrong' things like what happened at V. Tech are wrong.That is why lying about facts is wrong. I'm not talking about ignorance. I am talking about a intentional falsehood. It is absolutely wrong.And telling the truth, even at the expense of our own political expediency is absolutely good.Can you question those examples logically?

Archer:I never said anything about it being livable. In fact, as the story goes, only one person ever lived it. So He is the leader.It's the hardest thing in the world. As C.S. Lewis said, 'we could never have guessed it.'Not the kind of thing that humans think of. No... we think of things which put us on the top.