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Author Topic:   Help me find a hypocrite!
Zhimbo
Member (Idle past 6012 days)
Posts: 571
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 07-28-2001


Message 46 of 160 (396695)
04-21-2007 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Nuggin
04-20-2007 9:49 AM


Re: John Edwards?
If Edwards was telling people "you should get cheap haircuts because it isn't nice to spend lots of money on haircuts when there are poor children in the world", then he'd be a hypocrite.
As it is, I find the fuss rather hard to fathom.
Actually I don't. It's just part of the "Liberals are effete" meme.

This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 47 of 160 (396722)
04-21-2007 9:01 PM


I just don't get that thing with Edwards and the expensive haircut.
I mean, Bill and Melinda Gates run the largest endowment charity in the world, and I don't see anybody demanding that they sell their mansion and move into a basement two-bedroom apartment in a complex on the ourskirts of Pierre, SD.

Replies to this message:
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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 48 of 160 (396761)
04-21-2007 10:47 PM


The "tax and spend liberal" charge by neo-conservatives
Neo-cons lambaste liberals for being "tax and spend", while in the meantime they embark on "borrow and spend".
In reality, "tax and spend" ("don't spend what you don't have") is far more the traditional conservative stance, while "borrow and spend" is historically the great failing of traditional liberalism.
Budget deficits are not conservatism is action.
Also there's the "big government" charge against liberals. What administrations have been the ones expanding government? If I understand things correctly (and I may be wrong), it's the so called conservatives.
Moose

Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith
"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 49 of 160 (396766)
04-21-2007 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by nator
04-21-2007 6:57 PM


wind energy costs?
he's referring to the fact that someone has to make the thing that captures the wind. it's probably made of metal or plastic. if it's made out of plastic, it's nonrenewable. if it's made out of metal, you had to burn something to heat it up.
i guess the hope is that the mills will last long enough to replace their own costs a few times. but in any case, i think the biggest solution is to run the infrastructure on alternative fuel, the factories, the shipping. consumer products themselves are really a very small impact. but their manufacture... that's big.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 50 of 160 (396767)
04-21-2007 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by nator
04-21-2007 9:01 PM


i do. but i do it quietly. i don't think anyone should have a house bigger than they absolutely need. but then i'm an asshole.

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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 51 of 160 (396857)
04-22-2007 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Minnemooseus
04-21-2007 10:47 PM


Re: The "tax and spend liberal" charge by neo-conservatives
hm. let's see here.
we have Abraham Lincoln. Father of the GOP. Massive increase in Federal Power.
Then we have FDR. Father of the New Deal. Massive increase in Federal Power.
Then we have Dubbya. The Son of the Father. A very large increase in Federal Power.
LBJ and Reagan can be included in this list.
In all actuality, every president has increased federal power to some degree. Some just in very big ways.
The traditional conservative position has been to have smaller government. However, the GOP was founded on furthering federal power at the expense of state government (vast over simplification here, mind you).
My area actually isn't US History. I'm studying Western Europe (and have just started on that road, really).
ABE:
I should add this. The Cold War was the witness of continual expansion of federal power at a rate never seen in US history before. Seems like an ever present threat is the perfect excuse to expand your power. So every president beginning with WWII has increased federal power.
My personal bet is that the GWOT will have the same thing, and we're well on our way too.
Edited by kuresu, : No reason given.

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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2493 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 52 of 160 (396863)
04-22-2007 9:34 PM


Conservative monopoly on hypocracy
So, we've basically come to the conclusion that the conservatives / fundamentalists have a solid lock on hypocracy.
Now I have two questions:
1) Why?
2) Why don't their legions notice this?

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by kuresu, posted 04-23-2007 12:30 AM Nuggin has replied
 Message 55 by Archer Opteryx, posted 04-23-2007 2:35 AM Nuggin has replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 53 of 160 (396865)
04-23-2007 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Nuggin
04-22-2007 9:34 PM


Re: Conservative monopoly on hypocracy
do you consider Mao to be conservative? If not, then his program of opening up, letting new ideas come forward, is hypocrisy on a very deadly scale. He said--we welcome criticism and new ideas--and then killed the people who came forward. So much for the welcome mat.
pre-ABE:
second sentence is written badly. That "opening up" is hypocrisy regardless of Mao's political inclination. If he's a "liberal", then you have a liberal example of hypocrisy on a very deadly scale.

This message is a reply to:
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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2493 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 54 of 160 (396873)
04-23-2007 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by kuresu
04-23-2007 12:30 AM


Re: Conservative monopoly on hypocracy
Maybe, but there's two problems. Mao is outside of the American ideas of "liberal" or "conservative". Additionally, though I didn't say it, I was looking for more current examples - like people who are alive at this time.

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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 55 of 160 (396880)
04-23-2007 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Nuggin
04-22-2007 9:34 PM


No monopolies
So, we've basically come to the conclusion that the conservatives / fundamentalists have a solid lock on hypocracy.
That's ridiculous.
What about the so-called liberals who insist on free reproductive choice for themselves but praise China's one-child policy as being such a sensible thing for the people of China?
What about so-called liberals who ask us to be offended on their behalf if their elected president tells them something that turns out not to be true, who then turn around and say a 'strongman' in the Saddam Hussein mold is just fine for the people of Iraq?
Real people do this.
The kindest thing I can think is that people just aren't thinking. They are reacting. They use the oppositon party as their lodestar and feel that, as long as they aren't agreeing, their compass is pointed to true north. They end up wandering all over the map.
These are not principled positions. If they were, what would the principle be? That rights are a privilege to which 'liberal' Americans are entitled, but other people in the world don't rate?
No thinking person believes all the mischief is on one side in any complex society. To think so is to be half blind.
Interestingly, reesearch shows that most people do get their political loyalties from their families of origin in much the same way as they inherit their religious beliefs. Party loyalties, like church loyalties, are for most people extensions of family loyalties.
My Tribe = Always Good
Their Tribe = Always Bad
This is not thought.
In democratic societies the true liberals--by the dictionary definition--tend to be the so-called 'moderates.' They are the people who tend to be the most truly generous in their approach. They are less likely than their highly partisan neighbours to pre-judge. They are open to ideas of merit regardless of the source. They can see the honour on both sides of the debate.
___
Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo repair.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 69 by Zhimbo, posted 04-26-2007 11:47 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
DorfMan
Member (Idle past 6081 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 56 of 160 (396896)
04-23-2007 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by nator
04-21-2007 6:52 PM


Re: I wonder of Al is still eating his tenderloin
quote:
The methane (biogas) production from farm animals is produced from the decomposition of their waste, not from the gas they release themselves.
(And cattle don't release the methane by farting, but by belching)
Thought you might enjoy this:
I am cow, eating grass
Methane gas comes out my ass
And out my muzzle when I belch
Oh, the ozone layer is thinner
From the outcome of my dinner
I am cow, I am cow, I’ve got gas
-the Arrogant Worms
WordPress › ReadMe

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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2493 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 57 of 160 (396932)
04-23-2007 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Archer Opteryx
04-23-2007 2:35 AM


Re: No monopolies
What about the so-called liberals who insist on free reproductive choice for themselves but praise China's one-child policy as being such a sensible thing for the people of China?
Can you name one? And even if you can, do you realize that there is a difference between outlawing all abortion as a means to punish people who have sex and changing that tax laws to favor people who have only one child?
What about so-called liberals who ask us to be offended on their behalf if their elected president tells them something that turns out not to be true, who then turn around and say a 'strongman' in the Saddam Hussein mold is just fine for the people of Iraq?
This is simply not hypocracy. A hypocrite would say, "I'm offended that GWB lied to us to get us into the war, but I'm not offended that President X lied to us to get us into war Y".
Personally, I don't give a shit of Saddam is in charge of Iraq or not. I certainly don't think it's my job to get rid of him. That doesn't make me a hypocrite, that makes me an isolationist.
If I was a hypocrite, like the Conservatives, my position would be this:
"Saddam is bad for Iraq, he's mean to his own people, we need to go in there and fix this situation. But, I don't think we need to go in to stop the genocide which is actually happening in Africa."

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Archer Opteryx, posted 04-23-2007 1:42 PM Nuggin has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 58 of 160 (396936)
04-23-2007 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by nator
04-21-2007 6:57 PM


Re: Al Gore?
And I take it those windmills grew out of the ground and flew to the US all the way from Spain by themselves?

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by nator, posted 04-21-2007 6:57 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by nator, posted 04-23-2007 2:12 PM Taz has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 59 of 160 (396939)
04-23-2007 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Nuggin
04-23-2007 12:54 PM


Re: No monopolies
I mentioned individuals 'who insist on free reproductive choice for themselves but praise China's one-child policy as being such a sensible thing for the people of China.'
Nuggin swings into action thus:
Can you name one?
I can name several. Friends of mine. I'm not making this up.
It only takes one 'hypocrite' on the left, BTW, to falsify your statement about monopolies. Did you really think none existed?
And even if you can, do you realize that there is a difference between outlawing all abortion as a means to punish people who have sex and changing that tax laws to favor people who have only one child?
If you think China's 'one-child-per-family policy' is about tax breaks, you know nothing about China's one-child policy.
The policy is about strict government control of reproductive choice.
_____
Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : brev.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 60 of 160 (396943)
04-23-2007 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Taz
04-23-2007 1:15 PM


Re: Al Gore?
quote:
And I take it those windmills grew out of the ground and flew to the US all the way from Spain by themselves?
Is there any reason we couldn't make windmills here?
AbE: We actually do make them here. I found at lest 4 companies that manufacture them.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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