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Author Topic:   Do we talk up or down to fundies?
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 4 of 73 (396577)
04-20-2007 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nuggin
04-17-2007 2:21 PM


quote:
Should we treat fundamentalists as though they've completely missed out on their education or should we treat them as though they were part way through their masters degree in bio-engineering?
Why can't you do both? By engaging in a highly educated manner would implicitly show to creationists that they don't know jack, that they have missed out on their educations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Nuggin, posted 04-17-2007 2:21 PM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Nuggin, posted 04-21-2007 3:35 AM obvious Child has replied

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 11 of 73 (396664)
04-21-2007 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Nuggin
04-21-2007 3:35 AM


quote:
The problem is they don't WANT to know Jack. As I was saying in the other response I just posted - they want the answers handed to them so they don't have to think for themselves.
Then there is no real point in talking to them. You cannot convince someone who is not at least open to suggestion. Intelligence is the ability to entertain a idea without accepting it. If they lack that basic trait, there's no point in discussing things they disagree with.
quote:
This is evident from the constant tendancy for the Fundies to simply reply with a bare link to AiG etc.
I think those people are the ones without educations. I know a fair amount of creationists who see AiG as a mockery of their religion. They also have educations and believe in theistic evolution. But if one is not willing to learn, then are doomed to forever hold the same beliefs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Nuggin, posted 04-21-2007 3:35 AM Nuggin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by ringo, posted 04-21-2007 4:23 PM obvious Child has replied
 Message 13 by jar, posted 04-21-2007 4:48 PM obvious Child has replied

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 14 of 73 (396682)
04-21-2007 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by ringo
04-21-2007 4:23 PM


quote:
The point isn't to convince them - it's to stop them from convincing others. If we allow them to prattle on about even the stupidest ideas, some poor person who knows even less might be fooled.
But that's not really a problem here. For us to do what you intend would require us to follow them around. I don't see that as a feasible proposal given that many creationists go on many different boards.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by ringo, posted 04-21-2007 4:23 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by ringo, posted 04-21-2007 8:22 PM obvious Child has replied

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 15 of 73 (396685)
04-21-2007 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by jar
04-21-2007 4:48 PM


Re: Learning is a "Learned skill"
quote:
Learning how to learn is actually something often neglected. All too often what happens is the simple presentation of facts to be memorized. This forms the basis of most of what the Christian Cult of Ignorance does and in particular, sources like AIG.
So how do you fix this? Can it be fixed?
quote:
We do a lousy job of teaching folk how to learn. We do even worse in encouraging them to practice that skill.
We as in this site or we as the education system of America?
quote:
We do not teach folk how to test, how to discriminate, how to question, challenge and to think critically about issues.
How do you do this when their previous education has failed them and they have turned to something that is the anti-thesis of testing, discrimination, challenge and critical thinking?
We have people who think that God creating light after plants is totally not retarded. I'm not sure how to deal with someone like that.
quote:
Part of any effort needs to go to the basic skills, towards educating folk on "How to learn" as well as "What to learn."
Can this be done here?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 04-21-2007 4:48 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 04-21-2007 6:55 PM obvious Child has replied

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 19 of 73 (396737)
04-21-2007 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by ringo
04-21-2007 8:22 PM


quote:
Only the audience wins or loses.
Therefore we need to follow these creationists around. I don't see this as a feasible plan.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by ringo, posted 04-21-2007 8:22 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by ringo, posted 04-22-2007 3:26 AM obvious Child has replied

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 20 of 73 (396740)
04-21-2007 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
04-21-2007 6:55 PM


Re: Learning is a "Learned skill"
quote:
And once someone learns how to learn, unless they are dishonest they will never go back to the Christian Cult of Ignorance.
Perhaps, but they aren't the big problems. It is the rampant shotgun wash rinse repeat creationists that are the problem. How do we deal with them?
quote:
do not let them do a Gish Gallop or Palm the Pea, do not let them misdirect attention so they can move the dancin goalposts.
Ah, but you won't be discussing anything then as 99% of creationists when denied those tactics flee.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 04-21-2007 6:55 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 04-21-2007 10:11 PM obvious Child has replied

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 24 of 73 (396787)
04-22-2007 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by jar
04-21-2007 10:11 PM


Re: Learning is a "Learned skill"
quote:
Patiently. Hopefully with understanding.
I doubt it. There's a creationist on one board I go to that keeps repeating the same soft tissue argument after being refuted. It's gotten to the point where everyone knows he's a giant liar. However, he goes on a bunch of other forums where he likely has tricked some people. Other then stalking that person every board he goes to and even worse in life, I don't see how to deal with that kind of person.
quote:
True. They usually do run away. But remember that it is folk like that who give you the opportunity to present reasonable and rational material. Don't try to convince the person you are holding the conversation with. Present the best possible argument for your position regardless.
But when they flee your arguments then are rather narrow as the opposition has left the building.
IMO, the creationists have the upper hand here. They are not bound by facts and false arguments when it comes to science, misrepresentation and outright lies are easier to produce then studied, factual, evidence based arguments. For every 1 minute they spend coping lies, it takes us 10 to refute. With that kind of time attrition war, we're at a serious disadvantage.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 04-21-2007 10:11 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 04-22-2007 9:09 AM obvious Child has replied

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 32 of 73 (396867)
04-23-2007 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by ringo
04-22-2007 3:26 AM


quote:
Who said it was a "plan" for world domination? The question is: How do we approach the debate here?
Oh. I thought it was more then just that as I assumed that many of you aren't posting here exclusively.
quote:
The way to approach education is to start with what they do understand and work your way up until they can't understand any more.
How do you start with someone who claims evolution is false yet does not understand erosion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by ringo, posted 04-22-2007 3:26 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 04-23-2007 1:57 AM obvious Child has replied

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 33 of 73 (396869)
04-23-2007 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
04-22-2007 9:09 AM


Re: Learning is a "Learned skill"
quote:
You very likely cannot deal with such a person. The best you can do is present your best case for your position on those boards where you participate.
Most of the boards I go to can spot that kind of person. One board we openly mock that person as he made a statement about how dating was wrong because we can't tell if two samples are any older if found on the ground. The erosion jokes never stop on him. He makes a post we bring up the erosion comments.
quote:
Sure, but the Christian Cult of Ignorance pushes new graduates out the door daily.
But it gets tiresome of dealing with ignorant fools constantly no?
quote:
Yes. we certainly are at a disadvantage.
Lies are always easier to use then truth. One must choose between what is right and what is easy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 04-22-2007 9:09 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by jar, posted 04-23-2007 10:09 AM obvious Child has replied

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 40 of 73 (397053)
04-24-2007 4:47 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by ringo
04-23-2007 1:57 AM


But when they lack any capacity to examine their own beliefs, much less processes, I don't see value in discussing things with them. Can you change the mind of a brick wall? No.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 04-23-2007 1:57 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by ringo, posted 04-24-2007 9:41 AM obvious Child has replied

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 41 of 73 (397054)
04-24-2007 4:48 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by jar
04-23-2007 10:09 AM


Re: Learning is a "Learned skill"
quote:
I know that I learn something here every single day.
But when cannot even understand erosion, is there any hope?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by jar, posted 04-23-2007 10:09 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 04-24-2007 9:35 AM obvious Child has replied

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 44 of 73 (397156)
04-24-2007 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by jar
04-24-2007 9:35 AM


Re: Learning is a "Learned skill"
quote:
Erosion is a pretty complex subject and I am still learning about it.
He looks a picture of a eroded hillside and does not understand what happened. That IMO, is beyond hope.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 04-24-2007 9:35 AM jar has not replied

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 45 of 73 (397157)
04-24-2007 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by ringo
04-24-2007 9:41 AM


quote:
We're here to clean the graffitti off brick walls, so innocent bystanders don't take it as truth.
Perhaps, but this is just one board.
quote:
It's because they lack the capacity to examine their own beliefs that we have to examine their beliefs for them.
Perhaps. But you know that they will simply wash, rinse and repeat the same lies over and over and over again.
quote:
We try to prevent the disease from spreading, even if we can't cure those who are already infected.
So what do you do with the infected?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by ringo, posted 04-24-2007 9:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Taz, posted 04-24-2007 7:07 PM obvious Child has not replied
 Message 47 by ringo, posted 04-24-2007 7:37 PM obvious Child has not replied

  
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