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Author Topic:   Making Sense of Evil (Virginia Tech Massacre)
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 91 of 110 (397431)
04-25-2007 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Nuggin
04-25-2007 9:13 PM


Re: Evil?
The fact of the matter is if this kid had a muzzle loader, like what was available at the time the 2nd A was written
you really think that our founding father's weren't smart enough to say "muzzle loader" if they'd meant it?
It sounds like you would be fine with every house having guns. I can only assume that you would likewise be fine with machine guns, armor piercing bullets, etc.
guns, sure, hell, even a handgun. you are aware that almost every citizen in switzerland has a gun, right? the rest is excessive, and you're an idiot. supporting a right to own some variety of gun is not supporting the right to own nuclear fucking weapons. gun control is not the solution. only shotguns are legal in britain and they have a higher percentage of people victimized by gun violence than we do. smaller numbers, sure, but a higher percentage. the solution lies in understanding the culture that creates violence, not removing the tools. i'm absolutely in favor of restricting weapons to reasonable personal firearms. but not in a ban. that won't solve anything. show me the culture with huge gun violence that had a marked and demonstrable reduction resulting from a ban. never fucking happen.
but you know what? on second thought. fuck that! i need a tank for when george w decides to declare a state of emergency and cancel the elections next year. you've inspired me. i need to go get trained and get a concealed weapons permit so that i can properly defend myself and my constitution. and my uterus. can't forget that.
Typical conservative crap.
fuck face.
Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.
Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Nuggin, posted 04-25-2007 9:13 PM Nuggin has not replied

Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 92 of 110 (397433)
04-25-2007 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by One_Charred_Wing
04-25-2007 10:01 PM


Re: SATAN!!!!
i'm not interested in a discussion on the existence of supernatural "badness". i'm interested in finding real and workable policy solutions to a very real problem. whether or not your nasty little friend exists or has anything to do with bad things that happen has nothing to do with real policy solutions. take a walk.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 04-25-2007 10:01 PM One_Charred_Wing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 04-25-2007 10:36 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6155 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 93 of 110 (397436)
04-25-2007 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Nuggin
04-25-2007 9:13 PM


Re: Evil?
Typical conservative crap.
Typical lilly-livered liberal response, and this coming from a notorious fence-sitter you can consider yourself burned. Don't assume somebody's conservative just because they don't think guns are RESPONSIBLE for killing people like you [i]seem[i/] to think.
You honestly want to claim that if you and I had a killing contest where you were using a knife, you'd kill as many people as quickly as I would with a machine gun.
I would, for so many reasons that immediately come to mind that would make me sound like a would-be gun nut. But even if 'you' with the gun wasn't you, and 'me' wasn't One Charred Wing with a knife(who would win), and mr. gun nut won, the gun still had no say in the intent of the gunman.
Either you don't know much about machine guns or you don't know much about knives.
I'll assume that would address anyone who disagrees with you... I don't know everything about machine guns, but I have passing interest, and I know how to reload and aim an AK (I love knowing people in the NRA).
I also have uncherished experience with knives (if you could see me, you'd look at my right arm for permanent proof), and they're quieter, and thus would have a huge edge in the proverbial contest.
It sounds like you would be fine with every house having guns. I can only assume that you would likewise be fine with machine guns, armor piercing bullets, etc.
Slippery slope arguement; you assume someone who claims that a private citizen may own a firearm for home defense is also in favor of having an unnecessarily* powerful firearm so he or she could shoot people just for the heck of it.
Do you honestly believe that all people who are in favor of the second amendment want armor piercing bullets on civilian shelves? Yes or no?
After you answer that simple yes or no question, explain to me how a gun has the capacity to dictate a human being's behavior inthe first place?
Oh, and I'll admit to recently stretching a side issue in this thread too long, so this might be another good new topic.

I'm bent, bruised, broken, and a little lost. But you know what? I'm not so afraid as you are, who has never ventured away from the trail.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Nuggin, posted 04-25-2007 9:13 PM Nuggin has not replied

  
One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6155 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 94 of 110 (397438)
04-25-2007 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by macaroniandcheese
04-25-2007 10:29 PM


Re: SATAN!!!!
That's cool; I'll just steal your thunder on the issue of promoting the second amendment on this other dude.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by macaroniandcheese, posted 04-25-2007 10:29 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 95 of 110 (397439)
04-25-2007 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by One_Charred_Wing
04-23-2007 5:51 PM


Re: Evil?
Being open to the possibility of supernatural evil is believing something, not attributing it to anything per se.
so now that we've gotten back to this shit, what the fuck does being open to the possibility of believing in the supernatural have to do with virginia tech. it's completely fucking irrelevant.
since there's apparently people on the thread who don't know me, i am, amazingly enough (until you people make me baker act myself with your ridiculousness) both a born-again evangelical christian (in a very stretched sense of the term) and to the left of frederich engels. just as a reference. however, i have a brain and use it and discussing satan or gun bans will in no way solve the issue of motivated violence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 04-23-2007 5:51 PM One_Charred_Wing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 04-25-2007 11:25 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 96 of 110 (397440)
04-25-2007 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by One_Charred_Wing
04-25-2007 10:36 PM


Re: SATAN!!!!
cool with me. it's good to not be the only crazed lunatic in the room.
i just like to get any response. i hate it when i feel like i really said something and everyone just ignores me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 04-25-2007 10:36 PM One_Charred_Wing has not replied

  
One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6155 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 97 of 110 (397442)
04-25-2007 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by macaroniandcheese
04-25-2007 10:58 PM


Re: Evil?
so now that we've gotten back to this shit, what the fuck does being open to the possibility of believing in the supernatural have to do with virginia tech. it's completely fucking irrelevant.
Pfft, easy there, sport. I'm not the one who called your words 'typical right wing crap' or whatever nuggin said. I haven't raised a single flammatory word at you, I think ever, so easy on the language.
"Gotten backp to this shit"? That was thirty posts ago, and you're bringing it up again when I believe you:
a)feel (by this point, rightfully) that it's gone way off the intended topic
b)have said you have no interest in further debating this when I just asked you if you wanted me to make the 'spiritual evil' subject a new thread so it could be debated there.
And now you're trying to ream me for it after giving this impression?
since there's apparently people on the thread who don't know me, i am, amazingly enough (until you people make me baker act myself with your ridiculousness) both a born-again evangelical christian (in a very stretched sense of the term)
Okay, fine. You want a cookie? I'm pretty sure you professed being a theist in a previous thread (I'm thinking the relationship announcement, but don't quote me). With that in mind, I'd think you'd be less condescending to ideas that may not be entirely rational. How would you feel if somebody kept trying to label your beliefs as 'irresponsibility' on your part simply because you believed it? (I realize you dropped it in your last post. The hypothetical people who believe this way thank you.)
You sure you don't want to discuss this topic further? You're not as wordy as me, but you seem to be content raging on me about this.
and to the left of frederich engels.
Okay, that's you. I've hardly heard of the guy, and I'm probably less liberal than you. But I DIDN'T BELITTLE YOUR VIEWS ON THE 2ND AMENDMENT. Go squak at nuggin about that, because judging by your posts I agree with you on that topic.
however, i have a brain and use it
Bravo.
and discussing satan or gun bans will in no way solve the issue of motivated violence.
You know what? I agree! But one way or another the other topics came up, so maybe you could politely ask people to start new topics?
Also, nuggin seems to think gun bans will solve something, so you've still gotta argue him out of this thread... but you won't get to, because I'm going to to steal brennakimi's Thunder

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by macaroniandcheese, posted 04-25-2007 10:58 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 98 of 110 (397444)
04-25-2007 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by macaroniandcheese
04-25-2007 10:25 PM


Brennakimi gets 24 hour cooling off period
I think this message is getting way too uncivil.
Take 24 hours off.
Adminnemooseus
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Change ID.

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This message is a reply to:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 99 of 110 (397641)
04-26-2007 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Nuggin
04-25-2007 2:02 PM


Re: Evil?
It's not illegal to sell a crazy homocidal maniac a hand gun and a shitload of bullets.
Yes it is, and Lee was convicted of it(suicidal) in a court of law. The problem was, he was never sent for treatment.
If someone shows intent to do harm to himself or others, he is not allowed to purchase a gun.
It is not until someone gets admitted, that it goes on your record, then it would have shown up in the search, and that gun gun shop, would not have sold him the guns. Virginia is reviewing that law now, and rectifying it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Nuggin, posted 04-25-2007 2:02 PM Nuggin has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 100 of 110 (397650)
04-26-2007 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by JustinC
04-20-2007 9:19 AM


my take on it
I think the real question is, are people born evil?
I don't know. But it seems to me that evil breeds evil. Cho was a by-product of who he was, and his surroundings.
IMO, no-one is demon possessed, unless they first allow the demon to possess them. I use the word demon as a descriptive term, explaining his evil behavior.
Either way, for me, the mere fact that "Evil" exists in the world, is an indication that God exists as well. How this all adds up, is quite complicated, and I am not sure if I totally understand it.
But if Cho went through life being abused, and mis-treated, then those parties responsible are partly to blame as well IMO.
It's part of the reason why, I feel like I do not know who will go to hell and heaven. We miss divine appointments all the time.
The people around him seem to know that he was messed up, why wasn't more reaching out done?
It's like that movie with Adam Sandler, and he calls up all the people he abused in his life, and apologizes. The one guy was a mass murdered, and then crossed him off his list.
I used to work in a place where there was this guy who was mentally unstable, and on medication. When he stopped his medication, he usually would be taken away in a atraight jacket.
The other workers would abus this poor guy. I used to treat him nice, and take the extra time to explain things to him. Then I would asy to him, Danny, if you ever loose it, just remember who was nice to you (joking around, but serious too).
In short, I have never been able to make sense of evil, other than, without knowing evil, then we may never know what good is. The two must exist to understand the differences. It's like, how do you know what light is, unless you expereince the dark?
I have always desired to live in the garden.

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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(1)
Message 101 of 110 (397657)
04-27-2007 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by riVeRraT
04-26-2007 11:57 PM


Re: my take on it
While I certainly disagree with Rat's theological conclusions...
I certainly agree that evil breeds more of itself. Abused children are statistically more likely to be abusers.
Previous school shootings have typically involved a group of societal outcasts who had easy access to firearms. I'm sure all of us have, at one time or another, felt like the "loser," or a "nerd," or some other such outsider. It hurts, it's depressing, and the treatment received can be infuriating. Nobody is ever justified walking into a school with a gun for revenge, and I'll never be able to understand the psychological disconnect that allows an angsty, pissed-off geek to override his conscience and rationalize mass murder as acceptible, but I can understand some of the motivations behind it. I think that;s the closest I'll get to really understanding these things.
If we were all a little nicer to each other, kids and adults, I think less of this horror would happen. But I won't hold my breath.

This message is a reply to:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 102 of 110 (397666)
04-27-2007 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by RAZD
04-21-2007 5:53 PM


Re: evil? or anti-social?
Razd:
You did just single them out - you just asserted that they exhibit {anger? vitriol?} and implied that it was due to their (immoral by implication) life-style and you gave no other examples. I call that singling out.
You see? You're exibiting the paranoia now. And that is not a condemnation...
Please listen to me:
http://EvC Forum: Making Sense of Evil (Virginia Tech Massacre) -->EvC Forum: Making Sense of Evil (Virginia Tech Massacre)
In the above liked post, I said it is something we all suffer from...
Rob:
If you want to see a good example of the pyschological conditions exhibited by Cho, you can look no further than any person who has become angry. And yes, that includes me. Don't think I am unaware...
It is the potential of every person.
I can demonstrate further my analysis of this issue and that I do not hold one culture responsible and point fingers of blame. It is a short excerpt from an aritcle of mine which I do not think is posted elsewhere here at EVC if my menory serves...
'A Critique of Savage Philosophy':
...Now, there is one more thing I would like to say about ”Savage Philosophy’, and it is in regard to ”Liberalism as a Mental Disorder’. Dr. Savage has mentioned on numerous occasions that it is not just Democrats (or self styled Liberals) who suffer from this condition, but also Republicans (self styled Conservatives), and to an alarming degree our whole culture. I think he is onto something absolutely pivotal. But it is only a partial truth.
The mental disorder we all suffer from, to one extent or another is really just the illogical out-workings caused by avoiding certain realities and attempting to accommodate them in our own thinking. And these are the result of sin. The true condition is called ”Sin’. And it is this ”Spiritual Disorder’ that Michael Savage partially diagnoses with his tepid description of ”Liberalism is a Mental Disorder’.
As a result of only partially diagnosing the problem, Dr. Savage falls into the same trap that so many of us do, and that is of throwing stones and pointing fingers. The Liberals blame the Conservatives. The Jews blame the Muslims. The ACLU blames the ”Christian Right’. The Father blames the Mother. The Son blames the Father, etc. And everyone lives ”unhappily’ ever after.
The real solution to the problem lies in each individual’s responsibility to look into the mirror of God’s Ten Commandments and see for himself what he truly is. It is in ”the light’ of that truth that we can begin to see what it is that Jesus was trying to tell us all along. He is the truth. And no man comes to the Father but by the truth. His words correspond to reality. He asks us to remember how far we have fallen, and that it is not even arguable.
“The depravity of man is at once, the most empirically verifiable reality. Yet at the same time, it is the most intellectually resisted fact.” (Malcomb Muggeridge)
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 103 of 110 (587576)
10-19-2010 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by jar
04-23-2007 12:12 PM


Re: Evil?
I am going to reactivate this conversation in light of what hooah brought up in Message 15 of another topic:
hooah writes:
That doesn't work in this instance. Sure, you could say it was the will of the people....but only so because the people were driven by their holy book.
True enough, but if we got rid of religion we would not eradicate the propensity for evil.
So, you are saying people are inherently evil? Or do you ONLY say that because your holy book tells you that? Sorry I led us OT.
I believe that people are both good and evil. Evil in this case defined as selfish, greedy, or uncaring of others needs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by jar, posted 04-23-2007 12:12 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by hooah212002, posted 10-19-2010 3:35 PM Phat has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 104 of 110 (587579)
10-19-2010 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Phat
10-19-2010 3:26 PM


Re: Evil?
I believe that people are both good and evil. Evil in this case defined as selfish, greedy, or uncaring of others needs.
IF that were the case, I don't think human children would last very long seeing as no one would care for them. You have to admit that caring for children takes A LOT of self sacrifice. Sure, there are evil people out there, but to say that people are pre-destined to be evil (in the sense you mentioned) doesn't seem to add up. At least not to me, anyways.
Secondly, I can't even agree that those are actually evil qualities. I don't tend to think of someone who is greedy as being evil, I don't tend to think of someone who is selfish as evil. Nor do I think of someone who is uncaring as evil. Perhaps some more hardcore offshoots of those qualities, yes. But by themselves evil? Na, I don't think so.
I believe that people are both good and evil.
I believe that people are generally "meh" about the whole thing: neither good nor evil.

"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Damouse, posted 10-20-2010 6:22 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
Damouse
Member (Idle past 4905 days)
Posts: 215
From: Brookfield, Wisconsin
Joined: 12-18-2005


Message 105 of 110 (587777)
10-20-2010 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by hooah212002
10-19-2010 3:35 PM


Re: Evil?
Those are very harsh terms of what evil is, just as hooah pointed out. Not sure if that's intentional or not.
Regardless, getting rid of religion wouldnt get rid of evil, just that particular definition of it. Im not sure what you meant when you said that, hooah. If its meant to read as it's written, you're a very harsh aetheist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by hooah212002, posted 10-19-2010 3:35 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
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