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Author Topic:   Bible Question: What was the First Sin?
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 166 of 312 (395887)
04-18-2007 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Juraikken
04-16-2007 1:00 PM


Re: God knows what He's doing
Juraikken:
you think that was without purpose?
and He was there, He was watching all the time
Spying on those nekkid people while they lost their innocence. Gotcha.
So the first sin was not hubris. It was prurience.
_

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 167 of 312 (395926)
04-18-2007 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Juraikken
04-15-2007 7:51 PM


Did Adam or Eve sin?
You actually touch on the heart of the matter in your post, but then seem to just slide on past as though you didn't think about what you wrote.
You said:
We grow our minds by experience, Adam and Eve didnt have any experience so they didnt know right from wrong, but now they do.
Adam & Eve did not know right from wrong.
Again, Adam & Eve did not know right from wrong.
Until AFTER they had eaten from the Tree of Knowledge, they were not capable of knowing what was the right thing to do. Like children, they could not know that they should obey the word of one authority figure over another.
It is only afterwards that they were capable of sin.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Juraikken, posted 04-15-2007 7:51 PM Juraikken has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Juraikken, posted 04-19-2007 5:22 AM jar has replied

Juraikken
Member (Idle past 6188 days)
Posts: 82
From: Winnetka, CA
Joined: 11-13-2006


Message 168 of 312 (396200)
04-19-2007 5:22 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by jar
04-18-2007 12:39 PM


Re: Did Adam or Eve sin?
that IS a very sensitive subject to touch upon but it is true, think about it, did Adam and Eve ever GROW UP? not likely, they were created adult size, but in order to BE adults you need to grow your mind as a child until your an adult. but Adam and Eve were like children.
but when you tell a child you shouldnt do it, they still have that thought in their heads what you said, but thier childlike curiosity takes over and they do it anyway. pretty much same with Adam and Eve.
It wasnt malicious of God to do that because if they never did eat of the tree, right now you wouldnt be able to think for your own NOR would you be living a happy life, through suffering we gain knowledge and learn new things, if the Civil war, WWI, WWII, cold war, etc never happened we wouldnt have policies today to protect ourselves from large problems would we? we wouldnt learn
so God did us a favor by doing that, BUT he didnt do it, satan did it. God used satans trickery to open their eyes
1. God did not lie when he said "you will surely die", Adam and eve DID die.
2. God did not tempt them to eat of the tree, SATAN did.
3. God allowed sin to get through, not MADE sin get through becuase he was perfectly capable to stop that serpent but he didnt for a reason
4. God planted free thought into Lucifer in heaven, and Lucifer CHOSE the evil ways and that began this world, if Lucifer never had that evil thought, Adam and Eve would still be in the Garden of Eden.
So, in the beginning God planted free will into Lucifer, Lucifer chose evil, this doesnt mean God did anything bad, he gave him free will just like us.
Then, Lucifer, in his evil ways was allowed to be on earth with Adam and Eve, and Lucifer chose to trick them, God ALLOWED it to happen, 1. he knew it was going to happen, 2. he wanted it to happen to better ourselves in our lives becuase later on he says
"Now man is like one of us, knowing good and evil" thats a good thing!
so im glad that they ate of the tree
now technically thats not true that AFTERWARD they are capable of sin because God had directly told them not to do that, now do you punish your child when they disobey? or do you let them keep on disobeying? no you punish them, they did something wrong! they deserve a time out.
Edited by Juraikken, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by jar, posted 04-18-2007 12:39 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by jar, posted 04-19-2007 10:13 AM Juraikken has not replied
 Message 170 by ringo, posted 04-19-2007 12:31 PM Juraikken has not replied
 Message 171 by Nighttrain, posted 04-20-2007 12:17 AM Juraikken has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 169 of 312 (396230)
04-19-2007 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Juraikken
04-19-2007 5:22 AM


Re: Did Adam or Eve sin?
1. God did not lie when he said "you will surely die", Adam and eve DID die.
Of course God lied and sinned doing that. If the story really happened then God was guilty of a Sin of Omission, for failing to fully disclose the terms of the contract.
2. God did not tempt them to eat of the tree, SATAN did.
Irrelevant and immaterial. Before acquiring the knowledge of good and evil Adam & Eve had no capability to resist temptation. If there is a Sin here it is God's for Product Liability. Also Satan is not mentioned in the GOE story.
3. God allowed sin to get through, not MADE sin get through becuase he was perfectly capable to stop that serpent but he didnt for a reason
Sorry, but just because a killer has a reason for his actions does not make him innocent.
As you said, "God allowed sin to get through ..." so if the story is true and as you describe, it is God that sinned.
4. God planted free thought into Lucifer in heaven, and Lucifer CHOSE the evil ways and that began this world, if Lucifer never had that evil thought, Adam and Eve would still be in the Garden of Eden.
Again, absolutely no support for that assertion in the Bible. In fact, the Bible actually presents a different picture of Lucifer, one where Lucifer only does God's will. A good example is the fable of Job.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Juraikken, posted 04-19-2007 5:22 AM Juraikken has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Garrett, posted 04-27-2007 5:24 PM jar has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 170 of 312 (396266)
04-19-2007 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Juraikken
04-19-2007 5:22 AM


Re: Did Adam or Eve sin?
Juraikken writes:
did Adam and Eve ever GROW UP? not likely, they were created adult size, but in order to BE adults you need to grow your mind as a child until your an adult.
In the real world, we have to grow our minds by studying, going to school and getting stomped on Internet forums. In the Garden of Eden story, Adam and Eve "grew up" magically when they ate the fruit.
The story illustrates the process of growing up.
When we're children, we're innocent. We might do things that are "wrong", but we're not to blame if we don't know any better. That's why almost nobody believes that little children go to hell.
When we get the knowledge of good and evil, we are responsible for our actions. We pay the consequences. Unfortunately, some people completely miss the point of the story and blame their own wrongdoing on some poor snake or fallen angel.
If that was true, if "the devil made me do it" was a valid defense, the story would be meaningless. There would be no knowledge of good and evil. There would be no growing up.

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This message is a reply to:
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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 171 of 312 (396447)
04-20-2007 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Juraikken
04-19-2007 5:22 AM


Re: Did Adam or Eve sin?
that IS a very sensitive subject to touch upon but it is true, think about it, did Adam and Eve ever GROW UP? not likely, they were created adult size, but in order to BE adults you need to grow your mind as a child until your an adult. but Adam and Eve were like children.
Hey, you could be on to something here, Jura. Methinks this failure to grow up still lingers among believers. Could it be part of our fallen nature, or inherited sin?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Juraikken, posted 04-19-2007 5:22 AM Juraikken has not replied

Garrett
Member (Idle past 6166 days)
Posts: 111
From: Dallas, TX
Joined: 02-10-2006


Message 172 of 312 (397771)
04-27-2007 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Rrhain
08-29-2003 11:41 AM


I'm pretty sure your kidding, but regardless it mentions that they covered themselves after their eyes were opened to their nakedness...or something along those lines. Being naked wasn't a sin until they had the knowledge of good and evil which the fruit brought. Kinda like a kid running around naked isn't going to get arrested for public indecency.

This message is a reply to:
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Garrett
Member (Idle past 6166 days)
Posts: 111
From: Dallas, TX
Joined: 02-10-2006


Message 173 of 312 (397775)
04-27-2007 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by jar
04-19-2007 10:13 AM


Re: Did Adam or Eve sin?
Sin is simply the act of disobeying God, so by definition God can't commit a sin of omission, or any other kind for that matter.
You assert that there is no capability to resist temptation without the knowledge of good and evil. That is false. Adam and Eve had a choice. They didn't need to understand the dichotomy of good vs. evil to know that God, their creator, had instructed them not to eat the fruit. It's like saying you're child doesn't have the ability to listen to your instruction until he is old enough to understand the subject matter of the instruction.
If I tell my child not to hurt other children, it doesn't matter if he/she understands why...he/she is perfectly capable of listening nonetheless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by jar, posted 04-19-2007 10:13 AM jar has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 174 of 312 (397778)
04-27-2007 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Garrett
04-27-2007 5:24 PM


Re: Did Adam or Eve sin?
It's like saying you're child doesn't have the ability to listen to your instruction until he is old enough to understand the subject matter of the instruction.
A child doesn't.
If I tell my child not to hurt other children, it doesn't matter if he/she understands why...he/she is perfectly capable of listening nonetheless.
Your child has the gift of the Knowledge of Good and Evil thanks to Adam and Eve, but even then, until the child is old enough to really understand what "Don't hurt" means they are incapable of obeying.
But before eating of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, Adam and Eve were less than even the youngest child. They were just animals.
They were incapable of sin.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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 Message 173 by Garrett, posted 04-27-2007 5:24 PM Garrett has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by herrmann, posted 06-04-2007 4:50 PM jar has replied

herrmann
Junior Member (Idle past 6142 days)
Posts: 11
Joined: 05-22-2007


Message 175 of 312 (403650)
06-04-2007 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by jar
04-27-2007 5:35 PM


Re: Did Adam or Eve sin?
Simply disobeying god is sin enough. Man and Women did know what God meant and even restated the command to the serpent. Thus by having this knowledge, though tempted by satan, they still sinned.
Also, bearing false witness was not givin until the 10 commandments were givin. The 10 commandments are not expos facto. Also, it is neither of a false witness nor false testimony as false testimony is defined as "FALSE TESTIMONY - Testimony is "false" if it was untrue when it was given and was then known to be untrue by the witness or person giving it. A statement contained within a document is false if it was untrue when used and was then known to be untrue by the person using it." by lectlaw.com.
Edited by herrmann, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by jar, posted 04-27-2007 5:35 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by jar, posted 06-04-2007 5:15 PM herrmann has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 176 of 312 (403655)
06-04-2007 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by herrmann
06-04-2007 4:50 PM


Re: Did Adam or Eve sin?
Simply disobeying god is sin enough. Man and Women did know what God meant and even restated the command to the serpent. Thus by having this knowledge, though tempted by satan, they still sinned.
Simply asserting stuff is not enough unless you can make a reasonable and logical supporting argument. Satan is not even mentioned in the Genesis GOE story.
Also, bearing false witness was not givin until the 10 commandments were givin. The 10 commandments are not expos facto. Also, it is neither of a false witness nor false testimony as false testimony is defined as "FALSE TESTIMONY - Testimony is "false" if it was untrue when it was given and was then known to be untrue by the witness or person giving it. A statement contained within a document is false if it was untrue when used and was then known to be untrue by the person using it." by lectlaw.com.
Huh?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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shiloh
Junior Member (Idle past 6115 days)
Posts: 28
Joined: 06-21-2007


Message 177 of 312 (406550)
06-21-2007 2:23 AM


Somthing to think about reguarding the first sin question.
Actually, God spoke only to Adam reguarding the prohibition (2:15-17)not to Eve the info Eve got was from Adam - so maybe Adam did not relay the message correctly. Maybe thats why the Serpent went to her first with his question. Just a thought.

shiloh
Junior Member (Idle past 6115 days)
Posts: 28
Joined: 06-21-2007


Message 178 of 312 (406551)
06-21-2007 2:24 AM


Somthing to think about reguarding the first sin question.
Actually, God spoke only to Adam reguarding the prohibition (2:15-17)not to Eve the info Eve got was from Adam - so maybe Adam did not relay the message correctly. Maybe thats why the Serpent went to her first with his question. Just a thought.

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by IamJoseph, posted 07-02-2007 2:01 AM shiloh has not replied

pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 179 of 312 (408188)
07-01-2007 5:28 AM


Bible in 2007
It amazes me how the bible is still taken so literally. Seen any talking serpents lately? I don't dismiss the bible as an authority on life but the interpretations are bordering on ridiculous.
The bible taken as a whole is representative of the human race today (and every day) in our history. The good experiences, the bad experiences and everything inbetween.
The mythical stories represent our inner worlds and the physical stories represent the manifestations of our inner worlds. Have you heard that we actually do manifest from thoughts, beliefs and emotions? Maybe this is the real message the bible tells us. We are all responsible and all contribute to the whole experience of life?
It is time the bible wore a modern dress and this concept is far better than anything else I have heard. Time for change?

Replies to this message:
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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 180 of 312 (408355)
07-02-2007 1:53 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by phil
08-27-2003 5:48 PM


quote:
phil
This is a bit of a stretch, but I'm guessing that the actual answer is going to be. . . .
Eve was formed after God commanded Adam not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Also, God said nothing of touching the apple (only eating it).
When Eve was talking to the serpent, she said, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.'"
One could interpret this as "giving false testimony," which IS a sin (although it's not necessarily against "a neighbor").
Chances are I'm wrong again, but it was worth a shot.
This is not correct. The first sin could only occur after the law was tended at Sinai. Note that Jacob married two sisters - forbidden in the OT laws - but this was not a sin as that law was not yet mandated, untill 400 years later via Moses.
The issue of adam and eve become doubly wrong: it was not addressed to humanity, nor was it given upon this physical, earthly realm: the texts clearly states that adam and eve were in a different realm, from which they were cast down upon the earth from a paradisical garden - and re-entry was barred by spiritual beings rotating firey swords every which way.
The first law is that of 'GO FORTH AND MULIPLY' [genesis] - because it is formalised in the OT. The Israelites were forgiven the sin of worshipping a golden calf in the desert, even after witnessing all the miracles in Egypt: this is because Moses had yet not descended from the mount and the law was not made manifest as yet. They commited no sin - whch is a biblical term for a crime. Cain too was forgiven the crime of murder - which carries Capital punishment - for the same reason.
I believe the first sin was the violation of the sabbath, which law was given, and violated in the desert. We learn from this that mandated laws have to be enshrined via the registered written word - that's how the judiciary system operates: inferences or oral communications are insufficient, and not recallable by follow-up generations.

This message is a reply to:
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