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MartinV  Suspended Member (Idle past 5859 days) Posts: 502 From: Slovakia, Bratislava Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Is evolution of mammals finished? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Zucadragon Member Posts: 73 From: Netherlands Joined: |
You are boldly comparing coloration of animals to in this case coloration on mushrooms,(I'm not saying that you literally are making comparisons, but your moving from one to the other, from mushrooms to butterflies to whatever, meaning your crossing over) mushrooms in this case, fungus in other words has no need for any kind of other animal to transport it, it grows, throws out its conidia and when they land on an edible spot, a new fungus grows as it eats up all the decaying material (or living material, depending on what the fungus eats in this case, and I know eating is a very bad word, but it simplifies things so nicely)
You can argue that they all have different colors and darwinists dont have an answer. But it doesnt really matter in this case (and someone with more expertise in fungi might actually have the answer).. their reproductive system and their main functions are so completely different from plants and animals, that there really is no correlation. You're deluding yourself if you demand them to act the same way. On the point where you quoted me, I might have written it in a wrong way, but what I ment was very simple. Humans genetically altered many fruits and vegetables to have tasty colors. As for the decoration for fruits, I explained to you that the original color is appetising for other animals, they eat and poop out the seeds, its a great way to spread your seed so to speak. For animals its a great way to show the fitness of an animal, survival of the fittest, in this case chosing the best partner.. Vibrant colors on the male or female of an animal. In many species of animal this are signs of a very strong male or female.. Very logical in other words.
quote: Cephalopod - Wikipedia Go there to check on Cephalopod, place close attention on the "mostly color blind" and "camouflage" parts, they explain it better then I Can. What more is there to say ?? And please, just read something about butteflies, like here:Butterfly - Wikipedia Before you start complaining about it not being explained.
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3992 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 7.5 |
MartinV writes: But do not taste red Amanita muscaria. Biochemically active, certainly; it may even be fair to call it toxic--but millennia of shamans and thousands of contemporary consumers could tell you that it is not deadly when properly prepared.
do not follow rather darwinistic fancy explanation as to coloration in Nature - it can cost you a life. So why do chameleonic abilities appear so often in nature? Real things always push back. -William James Save lives! Click here!Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC! ---------------------------------------
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derwood Member (Idle past 1906 days) Posts: 1457 Joined: |
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: A friend who was a botany major in college once made a carrot cake with the roots of Queen Anne's Lace for a course assignment that required that the students make something edible out of something growing wild in the area. It took her hours and hours to pull up enough Queen Anne's Lace for one cake.
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3992 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 7.5 |
I was a Boy Scout in an inner city troup.
We earned money to attend summer BS camp by directing parking at the Indy 500 (mid 60s). My first direct experience with beer came from a drunken race fan saying, "O my God, a friggin' Boy Scout!" who then poured a bottle of beer on my head At summer camp, we learned lessons that later saved my life (drop and roll when you're on fire) and my little brother's life (Lifesaving Merit Badge--how to break a choke hold from a drowning swimmer). We were sent into the woods with a fishing line, knife, and a few other basics to demonstrate our knowledge of how to survive in the wilderness: what plants could be eaten, how to purify water, build a shelter, etc. I found my way back to the dining hall and liberated copious foodstuffs: wild carrots and dandelion greens are all very well, but peanut butter rocks. I didn't get caught, though I did later confess. I still got my survival badge: the proof was in the pudding (lemon). Mammals are sneaky. I don't think we're finished. Real things always push back. -William James Save lives! Click here!Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC! ---------------------------------------
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MartinV  Suspended Member (Idle past 5859 days) Posts: 502 From: Slovakia, Bratislava Joined: |
So why do chameleonic abilities appear so often in nature?
We cannot infer from it that coloration of mushrooms has the same function as it have in chameleons. The topic should have its own thread but I would like to summarize: 1) Mushrooms coloration has no cryptic/aposematic meaning either.
quote: University of Chicago Press Journals: Cookie absent 2) Production of poison in mushrooms is also hardly explainable by darwinistic mantra of "survival advantage". I have never heard about wild animals poisoned by mushroom (as student of mycology claimed here some times ago):
quote: http://www.springerlink.com/content/t772216861025u66 Even if darwinists try to explain presence of poison in mushroomsvia classical darwinistic explanation I would like see following explaination quote: to Lethal webcaps where the first symptoms often occurs after 3 weeks!I suppose that even if oppossum survive it will hardly remeber what kind of mushrooms ate it 3 weeks ago. Orellani - Wikipedia So the only explanation nowadays of coloration and poisonous quality of mushrooms that darwinists offer is some mysterious side effects. Strange, isn't it?
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Wounded King Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: |
Why on earth would you just pick some random example and then require it be shoehorned into a description of something that happened with another very different mushroom.
Amanita muscaria is generally not lethal and the mushroom has very distinctive colouration. The lethal webcap is much more toxic, indeed frequently lethal, and has no sort of bright colouration (I'm sure we could debate the different perceptions among fungivores here but I don't know that it would help). A mushroom whose poison kills those that ingest it is clearly not going to be showing similar survival strategies to one which induces unpleasant illness and has associated psychotropic effects. Look at the related Amanita phalloides which is highly toxic and again you will see a pretty plain colouration. If your poision is strong enough to kill something that eats you (or even just part of you), it really doesn't matter if they remember what you look like.
to Lethal webcaps where the first symptoms often occurs after 3 weeks! Martin why say something and then put up a link which shows how radically you are spinning it. The Wiki article says 'symptoms usually don't appear until 2-3 days after ingestion' but can 'in some cases' take as long as 3 weeks. Can you see how simply saying 'often occurs after 3 weeks' is a complete twisting of this? TTFN, WK
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3992 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 7.5 |
quote: Ah, let us pause to savor this moment. MartinV, you went squirreling after mushrooms to evade the telling points being made by others in the discussion of mammal evolution (the actual topic). So isn't it grand to see you now weasel about the applicability of chameleonic abilities to mushroom discussions? I don't know, maybe it's just me. Anyway, I mentioned chameleons to cut to the chase (and the camouflage that is sometimes involved). No one here has argued that prey v. predator relationships determine all color attributes of life. However, you have broadly denied any role by natural selection in this phenomenon. So chameleons are especially relevant: If color is never determined by natural selection, and has no impact on survival, why do chameleonic abilities exist? Note that these abilities do not just exist in chameleons. Perhaps you should shift the discussion to diatoms. Strange, isn't it? Edited by Omnivorous, : No reason given. Edited by Omnivorous, : typos redux Real things always push back. -William James Save lives! Click here!Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC! ---------------------------------------
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MartinV  Suspended Member (Idle past 5859 days) Posts: 502 From: Slovakia, Bratislava Joined: |
A mushroom whose poison kills those that ingest it is clearly not going to be showing similar survival strategies to one which induces unpleasant illness and has associated psychotropic effects.
What I am trying to explain here is that mushrooms coloration (and now even their toxicity) has nothing to do with darwinistic "survival strategies". According darwinism if something is poisonous it should tend to show it up using bright coloration. That's why the research I mentioned above claims in its abstract:
quote: As you can see their expectations contradicts your own opinion:
If your poision is strong enough to kill something that eats you (or even just part of you), it really doesn't matter if they remember what you look like.
Yet they confirmed what I stated from the beginning:
quote: http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=13478541
Martin why say something and then put up a link which shows how radically you are spinning it. The Wiki article says 'symptoms usually don't appear until 2-3 days after ingestion' but can 'in some cases' take as long as 3 weeks. Can you see how simply saying 'often occurs after 3 weeks' is a complete twisting of this?
I have given the link because there is general data about the mushroom. If you like scientific link supporting my claim more precisely:
quote: http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17431991 or guy twisting facts like me:
quote: econetwork.net - econetwork Resources and Information. Again - I do not see any darwinistic "survival strategy" of poison that take effect after so many days that animal cannot remember what could be the source of its nuisance. Of course I have to admit I am not sure if animals react to orellanine the same way as men do. Edited by MartinV, : No reason given.
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Wounded King Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: |
What I am trying to explain here is that mushrooms coloration (and now even their toxicity) has nothing to do with darwinistic "survival strategies". No, that is what you are claiming, you haven't actually explained anything.
Yet they confirmed what I stated from the beginning: Do they consider the distinction between non-lethal and lethal toxins? If not then the article doesn't address the point I made. Instead it relates to the side poin I made that visual perception in fungivores might be a question and the idea that aposematic signalling is done by olfaction instead is no problem for neodarwinism, but there is no reason it can't be done by both in distinct situations.
If you like scientific link supporting my claim more precisely The previous link didn't support your claim imprecisely, it didn't support it at all and neither does your new one. 9 days still isn't after 3 weeks, and neither is 17 days which is the later time for the onset of symptoms that your new paper gives. Can't you just admit that your 'after 3 weeks' claim was wrong?
Again - I do not see any darwinistic "survival strategy" of poison that take effect after so many days that animal cannot remember what could be the source of its nuisance. Once again, if the form that 'nuisance' takes is 'possible fatal kidney damage', as your site suggests, then it hardly matters if the animal remembers what it ate or not. Care to address the point, or do you have some more links which have nothing to do with it to bring up? TTFN, WK
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Cthulhu Member (Idle past 5882 days) Posts: 273 From: Roe Dyelin Joined: |
quote:Nope. What would be predicted is that organisms that use toxicity as a passive defence and cannot survive having part of the body ingested are likely to evolve strategies to warn that they are toxic. Toxicity is not much of a survival trait if you die. Now, since mushrooms don't die if they get part of their body eaten, displaying their toxicity is not a survival advantage. If anything, it'd be a slight disadvantage, since producing the pigments requires energy.
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MartinV  Suspended Member (Idle past 5859 days) Posts: 502 From: Slovakia, Bratislava Joined: |
Now, since mushrooms don't die if they get part of their body eaten, displaying their toxicity is not a survival advantage.
Are you sure that only PART of body of mushroom is eaten by wild animals? Maybe they are eaten as whole and all mushrooms under a tree is eaten as well. Anyway there is - as far as I know and as I cited a research in my previous post - not known case of poisoned wild animals due eating mushrooms.
If anything, it'd be a slight disadvantage, since producing the pigments requires energy.
One of the most poisonous mushroom Amanita phalloides has its cap mostly green. The color could be - I dare say - in grass and forest perceived as cryptic. Poison take effect after many hours and not instantly. Any darwinstic explanation of "survival advantage"?- consider the fact that most mushorooms are eatable, tasty and yet have often more conspicuos coloration (they "wanted" to be eaten and A. phalloides don't?). Edited by MartinV, : "poisoned wild animals" instead of "poisoned animals". There are cases of poisoned pets. Edited by MartinV, : No reason given. Edited by MartinV, : No reason given.
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Cthulhu Member (Idle past 5882 days) Posts: 273 From: Roe Dyelin Joined: |
quote:Well, as the fruiting body can be destroyed without killing the mushroom, it doesn't matter. Also, what the hell is that last sentence saying? Is it claiming that no wild animal has ever been killed by a poisonous mushroom? Because that's bullshit. quote:Well, the color makes it less likely to be eaten. If it is eaten, the fungus will likely survive. The poison? Well, most things that eat fungi are small, and thus will die far more rapidly than humans, due to the lower amount of toxins that are needed for a lethal dose. It's pretty basic stuff.
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MartinV  Suspended Member (Idle past 5859 days) Posts: 502 From: Slovakia, Bratislava Joined: |
Is it claiming that no wild animal has ever been killed by a poisonous mushroom? Because that's bullshit.
quote: http://www.springerlink.com/content/t772216861025u66
If it is eaten, the fungus will likely survive.
Fungus will survive if its mushrooms (its reproductive organs so to say) is eaten or not. (Might be my grasp of english is not good enough - and mushroom and fungus is the same word? How we than call the part of fungus that is in the earth and have symbiotic relationship with the tree roots?) Edited by MartinV, : No reason given.
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Wounded King Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: |
Mushrooms is used as a term for a particular group of fungi and also a term for the fruiting body of those fungi. There are many other types of fungi which are not mushrooms.
TTFN, WK
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