EvC Forum: Bishop Bell's Behemoth, Or The Paleontological Prelate

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Topic: Bishop Bell's Behemoth, Or The Paleontological Prelate

anastasia

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Message 9 of 23 (397554)
04-26-2007 2:45 PM

Reply to: Message 8 by Coragyps
04-26-2007 10:05 AM

double

Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

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anastasia

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Posts: 1857

From: Bucks County, PA

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Message 10 of 23 (397555)
04-26-2007 2:48 PM

Reply to: Message 8 by Coragyps
04-26-2007 10:05 AM

Coragyps writes:

I wouldn't expect that there was an entire fossil to work with - say, maybe a neck and head, and the artist used analogy to known animals to make his illustration.

Can I ask you or anyone a little lay person's question?

How likely is it, even given an entire skeleton, that an artist would depict the living creature as in this engraving? Would/could there be hair or other guesses? Why would it not be portrayed more like a dragon?

Also , if dragons were some representation of fossils found, why are they similarly hairless and scaled?

If these pictures were of dinosaurs, wouldn't it seem that the artists imaginations were using something more than only bones? Or just a lucky guess?

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anastasia

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From: Bucks County, PA

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Message 14 of 23 (397621)
04-26-2007 10:15 PM

Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Adequate
04-25-2007 9:51 PM

St Bernard writes:

What business have these ridiculous monstrosities, those amazingly freakish beauties and marvelously beautiful freaks in the cloisters right in front of the eyes of the monks who are supposed to be reading or meditating? You see one head with many bodies or one body with many heads. Here you have a serpent's tail attached to a quadruped and there a mammal's head attached to a fish's body. . . Great God, if they do not feel shame about the nonsense they produce why don't they at least shun the expense!

As a side item, here is one reason for the lovely folk of AiG to stop claiming that dinosaurs were roaming through Europe during medieval times.

Bernard of Clairvaux died in the 12th century.

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	Message 1 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-25-2007 9:51 PM		Dr Adequate has not replied

anastasia

Member (Idle past 5980 days)

Posts: 1857

From: Bucks County, PA

Joined: 11-05-2006

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Message 19 of 23 (397924)
04-28-2007 11:09 AM

Reply to: Message 16 by AnswersInGenitals
04-27-2007 11:49 PM

AIG writes:

What were the typical funerary adornments at this place and time? Maybe this is just a very poorly executed rendition of a fairly common and obvious graphic.

I don't know about funerary adornment of the time, but take a look at this list of some illustrations found elsewhere in Carlisle Cathedral! One would have to make a case for skeletal remains being found for all of these other 'animals'. In context of the whole, this particular 'dinosaur' certainly does lose its impact.

Description of the Interior of Carlisle Cathedral writes:

The hinged seats, known as misereres or misericordes, were constructed to keep the monks from falling asleep while at prayers. The carvings beneath these seats are of different designs, generally grotesque.

The following is a list of the subjects found carved thereon:”

NORTH SIDE

A dragon swallowing a man.
Bird and young.
Dragon and lions.
Three dragons, one with a human face.
Winged figure with a tabour.
Dragon devouring a bird.
Coronation of the Virgin.
Three griffins.
Pelican in its act of piety.
Dragon and lion fighting.
Griffin and two young ones.
Two dragons joined together.
Two storks eating out of a sack.
Figure with wings, claws, and human face.
Angelic musician.
Two eagles.
Double-headed eagle.
Fox and goose.
Two dragon bodies with a human head.
Angel playing an instrument.
A man with two eagles plucking his beard.
Dragon, and two lions with human faces.

SOUTH SIDE

Two angels.
Dragon.
Bird and beast fighting.
Human head on two animal bodies.
Winged dragon.
Winged serpent.
Two beasts with one head.
Two men fighting.
Griffin with human head.
Dragon and foliage.
Two eagles holding the head of a beast.
Fox and goose.
Human figure with four wings.
Man and dragon fighting.
Angel bearing a shield.
Angel and dragons.
Pelican in its act of piety.
Boar killing a man.
Man holding two dragons.
Dragon killing a beast.
Mermaid.
Dragon and lion in combat.

AIG writes:

What does the inscription say?

Read horizontally 'Hec spes mea in sinu meo'...is a verse from Job 19:27.

'Credo qd [sic] redemptor meus vivit'...part of the service for the Burial of the Dead, later a hymn by Robert Parsons and also put to music in an English version by J.F. Handel.

Of the other two inscriptions, one is the name, dates, etc, of the deceased with a simple requiescat.

The other I can not make out so well, but basically tells us that the tomb holds the bones of Bell, and possibly contains some biographical info about his tenure as Bishop?

Anyway, no clues there in the inscription.

Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

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	Message 20 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-28-2007 11:43 AM		anastasia has replied

anastasia

Member (Idle past 5980 days)

Posts: 1857

From: Bucks County, PA

Joined: 11-05-2006

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Message 21 of 23 (397932)
04-28-2007 11:53 AM

Reply to: Message 20 by Dr Adequate
04-28-2007 11:43 AM

DrA writes:

Well that's a wussy dragon.

Hey, Dr A!

The dragon and lion mentioned in the list are not the pictures on the tomb. They are other carvings found on benches.

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	Message 20 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-28-2007 11:43 AM		Dr Adequate has replied

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	Message 22 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-28-2007 11:59 AM		anastasia has replied

anastasia

Member (Idle past 5980 days)

Posts: 1857

From: Bucks County, PA

Joined: 11-05-2006

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Message 23 of 23 (397938)
04-28-2007 12:14 PM

Reply to: Message 22 by Dr Adequate
04-28-2007 11:59 AM

I will go out on a limb and give you my opinion for your perusal and comments.

The important thing about bestiary animals is often their symbolism. If you look at the misericordiae carvings, many of them have obvious symbolism...the Pelican for instance.

It stands to reason IMO that the rest of the engravings are symbolic as well, even if the references are lost. At least it would be an interesting research project.

So, I still go with 'dragon' for Bell's Tomb, because I am speculating that the animal opposite is a mongoose, or ichneumon. I have nothing to base this on save the fact that the mongoose is the 'nemesis of the dragon' regarded by many cultures as a symbol of Good versus Evil, and alternately seen with a snake, serpent, or dragon which it attacks by the throat. I would put it on a tomb!

Remember the projections sidelined asked about? Wings! What else would be missing from a dragon?

However your OP still stands. Why would this particular dragon look so much like a dino?

Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

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	Message 22 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-28-2007 11:59 AM		Dr Adequate has not replied

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