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Author Topic:   Guns
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1954 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 91 of 301 (398077)
04-29-2007 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Jon
04-29-2007 4:44 AM


Re: Sexual Assualt vs Rape vs Hand gun
Personally, if someone started grabbing me in a sexual manner, and I had a gun, and the legal right to do so, I'd put a bullet between their eyes faster than they could blink.

And this is an argument for or against personal gun possession? I'm seriously hoping the latter...


This message is a reply to:
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Vacate
Member (Idle past 2911 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 92 of 301 (398078)
04-29-2007 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by macaroniandcheese
04-29-2007 1:13 AM


You, on the other hand, are a freedom fighter?
brennakimi writes:

not to mention our own government which is getting more fascist by the day

A few posts late but I wonder if perhaps someone, brennakimi maybe, could tell me what the American public intends to do once they decide their goverment has become too fascist?

This is often stated when people are defending the right to have guns. I wonder what would they do with these guns? This is the same population that is very proud to have the most powerful, modern, and best trained militay force in the world.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but your going to need bigger guns.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by macaroniandcheese, posted 04-29-2007 1:13 AM macaroniandcheese has responded

Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 480 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 93 of 301 (398081)
04-29-2007 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Jon
04-28-2007 9:29 PM


Re: Fingerprinting
Well, do you know the reason the hospital takes prints of newborns' feet?

This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 480 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 94 of 301 (398082)
04-29-2007 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by One_Charred_Wing
04-28-2007 10:30 PM


Re: so sad is the scraff I see here
quote:
I love the way you throw statistics at me instead of acknowledging that there's nothing you can say to undermine the specific points I made, nator. Really wish you and nuggin wouldn't resort to creationist tactics like this.

Actually, the statistics do rather undermine your specific points. And it is hardly a creationist tactic to provide legitimate statistical information in order to counter a claim.

quote:
So it sounds to me like it was somebody already in the house, using the most convenient method. Sadly, we've already covered this--he's almost always a larger, faster specimen who could take her out without a gun with VERY little risk of mortal injury.

Yes, but what the statistic shows is that in homes where all other things are equal BUT there are no guns, women are far less likely to be killed.

Gun in house = greater liklihood of woman being killed.

quote:
Gunshots are loud as hell, so either way people will probably call the cops on him. If he used a silencer, that's illegal. That further proves that criminals will always have stuff we're not supposed to.

So, he shoots her dead, then people call the cops.

Great. She's still dead.

quote:
Either-or FALLACY. There are weapons EVERYWHERE, even in the abscence of guns: Shoes, chairs, silverwear, letter openers, belts, metal combs, blow driers, pencils, printer, PS2, hammer, screwdriver, drill&bits, heavy bicycle helmet, heavy lamp, loose mattress spring, hookah, broomsticks, plungers, pillows, staplers (that was just my own hole-in-the-wall off campus living; just think what's in a real house. For the record, I don't personally use the hookah.)

I think that the statistic used the word "weapon" to mean "gun".

How easy is it to kill someone with a shoe, compared to a gun, do you think?

quote:
OH, and for that last one? Clearly there's something wrong with people who would abuse their spouses in the first place. Let's work on the problem of crazy people a little more actively before we take away the power for the sane to defend themselves.

...but in the meantime, thousands of women will die, and that's OK with you.

Got it.

Edited by nator, : No reason given.

Edited by nator, : No reason given.


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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2238 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 95 of 301 (398083)
04-29-2007 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Nuggin
04-29-2007 2:12 AM


you say this as though i'm going to be offended by it.

it's not an honor system. there is a criminal system to respond to and punish those who offend.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Nuggin, posted 04-29-2007 2:12 AM Nuggin has not yet responded

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2238 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 96 of 301 (398085)
04-29-2007 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Nuggin
04-29-2007 2:14 AM


Re: Lies on top of lies
the 24 hour time out was irrelevant because i'm not upset, and you're still making up shit.

scraf did come up with some numbers. but not the ones i ask you for.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Nuggin, posted 04-29-2007 2:14 AM Nuggin has not yet responded

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2238 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 97 of 301 (398086)
04-29-2007 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Nuggin
04-29-2007 3:19 AM


Re: You, on the other hand, are right.
Anyway, my point was not that only drunk killbillies have handguns, it's that there is "a world of difference" between the two categories.

so you know that you are purposely conflating the issue. okay. that makes it all better.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Nuggin, posted 04-29-2007 12:16 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

nator
Member (Idle past 480 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 98 of 301 (398088)
04-29-2007 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by One_Charred_Wing
04-28-2007 7:37 PM


Re: You, on the other hand, are right.
But if he had only had access to a knife, or a pipe wrench, or a pool cue, how many people do you think he would have been able to kill?

quote:
Granted, in this instance, not as many.

Not as many?

He'd have been lucky to have killed even one or two. Even if people had been lining up to be killed by him, and offered no resistance, sheer physical exhaustion would have set in after about one or two people.

You have a very strange and unrrealistic image of how easy it is to kill someone by stabbing or by blunt force compared to with a gun.

quote:
But the damage count could've still been high if he did it at night, where only a few people were around, and in different places as he did.

But what would the death count have been, do you think?

Killing people with anything other than a gun is really quite difficult. It takes a lot of time to stab or strangle or beat someone to death compared to shooting them. It is also much more intimate and involves much more risk to the attacker. Vicims can also run away from a person holding a knife or a wrench or a pool cue.

quote:
So I guess that sucks for the now defenseless housewife when a homocidal maniac breaks into her house and is about to break the lock to her bedroom?

The quote of mine above was in response to you saying this in a previous message about Cho, the kid who killed all those people at VT:

quote:
all the bans in the world won't prevent people from losing it one way or another.

My point is that if he hadn't been able to so easily buy a gun, and instead only had access to knives, pipe wrenches, and pool cues, we wouldn't have seen over thirty murders and a suicide when he "lost it".

And about the "homicidal maniac" in the woman's house?

In 1998, for every one time a woman used a handgun to kill a stranger in self-defense, 302 women were murdered in handgun homicides.


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Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 480 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 99 of 301 (398089)
04-29-2007 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by One_Charred_Wing
04-28-2007 11:16 PM


Re: Lies on top of lies
So, you are rejecting the researcher's conclusion that guns in a house was a strong inducement to burglery?

AbE: So where is your study that comes to a different conclusion than the one I provided?

Edited by nator, : No reason given.


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nator
Member (Idle past 480 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 100 of 301 (398090)
04-29-2007 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by macaroniandcheese
04-29-2007 1:13 AM


Re: You, on the other hand, are right.
quote:
difficult, yes. impossible, no.

I never suggested that we ban all private ownership of all firearms.

quote:
remember the idea of invasion. we may think we're immune, but we aren't. not to mention our own government which is getting more fascist by the day.

Unless you are suggesting that all private citizens stockpile scads of military weapons, rockets, greandes, and mines, just what do you think a shotgun or two and some handguns are going to do against an invading foreign army, or the combined firepower of the US armed forces should martial law be imposed in the US?

Stats on gun deaths in Japan and Stwitzerland (and other countries).

Might be a slightly biased source but the stats are legit.

Japan has a level of community safety which is unmatched by most of the world and reinforced by strong cultural norms. Japan had fewer gun deaths in all of 1995 than occur in an average day in the United States. In 1995, Japan had a total of 168 firearms shootings, in which 34 people were killed and 33 were injured. However, the Japanese are concerned about what they perceive as an escalation in violence.

Opponents of gun control often use Switzerland as evidence that access to guns is not linked to crime or violence. They argue that since virtually all adult males are members of the army and have military weapons, there is nearly universal access to deadly weapons yet few gun-related problems in Switzerland. However, Swiss criminologist Martin Killias, of the Université de Lausanne, argues that the rate of households with firearms is actually comparable to that of Canada (27.2%). There is strict screening of army officers and ammunition is stored in sealed boxes and inspected regularly. Despite these controls, Switzerland has rates of gun suicide second only to the US among the countries Killias surveyed and a gun murder rate comparable to Canada's. Although firearms regulations in Switzerland is fragmented and controlled at the regional level, wide ranging reforms are being undertaken to establish national standards.

Edited by nator, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by macaroniandcheese, posted 04-29-2007 1:13 AM macaroniandcheese has responded

Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2238 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 101 of 301 (398092)
04-29-2007 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Nuggin
04-29-2007 2:21 AM


Re: Lies on top of lies
Also, please additionally prove that these rapes would have been disuaded by the presence of a hand gun in the house, since that's what we are discussing.

i wasn't discussing this as a reason for gun ownership. i don't think individual protection has anything to do with the issue. i was referring to the fact that you seem to think that there's no real threat of rape. do you know six women? do you know that each of them lives wondering whether the next one is going to be her? you do understand that one in six is close enough to every woman ever when every one of those other five lives in fear of it. also, from what i can tell, those statistics of one in six and 200,000 reports are worldwide. there's no way that there are only 200,000 rapes worldwide in a year, not to mention if we add in assault. further, there's no discussion of distribution.

It strikes me like something I would have heard in the early 90s in which a term like "sexual assault" is expanded to include oogling.

are you insensitive on purpose, or does it just happen?
if you really want me to, i can go off about all the various ways i've been sexually assaulted and all the varisou ways my friends have been assaulted and all the various ways various insensitive people have assaulted women because they simply didn't care enough to be sure they were being appropriate. but i thought i'd be brief.

also, for those later in the thread who seem to think that being groped isn't really so bad. try it. sexual assault is the act of taking over the power another person has over his own body and using that power to violate him. it doesn't matter how "bad" that violation is, it is the nature not the degree of violation that matters. think about it this way. is it okay for daddy to just grope his little girl as long as he doesn't have sex with her? if it's not okay in this situation, there's nothing about growing up that makes it okay.

the law here defines sexual assault as

* Someone putting their finger, tongue, mouth, penis or an object in or on your vagina, penis or anus when you don’t want them to;
* Someone touching, fondling, kissing or making any unwanted contact with your body;
* Someone forcing you to perform oral sex or forcing you to receive oral sex;
* Someone forcing you to masturbate, forcing you to masturbate them, or fondling and touching you;
* Someone forcing you to look at sexually explicit material or forcing you to pose for sexually explicit pictures; and
* A doctor, nurse, or other health care professional giving you an unnecessary internal examination or touching your sexual organs in an unprofessional, unwarranted and inappropriate manner.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Nuggin, posted 04-29-2007 2:21 AM Nuggin has responded

Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2238 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 102 of 301 (398093)
04-29-2007 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Vacate
04-29-2007 7:42 AM


Re: You, on the other hand, are a freedom fighter?
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you're going to need bigger guns.

i know. which is why i've decided to start opposing all size- or action-based gun control.

This is often stated when people are defending the right to have guns. I wonder what would they do with these guns? This is the same population that is very proud to have the most powerful, modern, and best trained militay force in the world.

it would be hard, that is why it is vital to first be wholly involved politically, it's not really the system that's broken, just those running it.

what the American public intends to do once they decide their goverment has become too fascist?

i would hope that they would look up from their tv screens long enough to do ANYTHING, but i'm really not so sure.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Vacate, posted 04-29-2007 7:42 AM Vacate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by nator, posted 04-29-2007 11:30 AM macaroniandcheese has responded

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2238 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 103 of 301 (398094)
04-29-2007 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by nator
04-29-2007 10:22 AM


Re: You, on the other hand, are right.
I never suggested that we ban all private ownership of all firearms.

just checking.

Unless you are suggesting that all private citizens stockpile scads of military weapons, rockets, greandes, and mines, just what do you think a shotgun or two and some handguns are going to do against an invading foreign army, or the combined firepower of the US armed forces should martial law be imposed in the US?

i think the issue really is that there used to be stocked armories in almost every city. a few dozen fairly armed citizens could easily take an armory. but those have been turned into dance halls for old people. do we have a fighting chance? not really. but we should.


This message is a reply to:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2238 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 104 of 301 (398096)
04-29-2007 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by nator
04-29-2007 10:09 AM


Re: You, on the other hand, are right.
In 1998, for every one time a woman used a handgun to kill a stranger in self-defense, 302 women were murdered in handgun homicides.

what about a non-stranger?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by nator, posted 04-29-2007 10:09 AM nator has not yet responded

nator
Member (Idle past 480 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 105 of 301 (398099)
04-29-2007 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by One_Charred_Wing
04-29-2007 2:27 AM


Re: Lies on top of lies
quote:
If a woman keeps a handgun in her purse, she can use it as a weapon much more easily than mace or a knife.

source

For all of the promises made on behalf of the self-defense handgun, using a handgun to kill in self-defense is a rare event.5 Looking at both men and women, over the past 20 years, on average only two percent of the homicides committed with handguns in the United States were deemed justifiable or self-defense homicides by civilians.6 To put it in perspective, more people are struck by lightning each year than use handguns to kill in self-defense.7

This message is a reply to:
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