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Author Topic:   Guns
macaroniandcheese 
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Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 64 of 301 (398040)
04-29-2007 1:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nuggin
04-26-2007 12:30 AM


Did the founding fathers, in the days of muzzle loaders with bad range and worse aim, honestly intend for the events of VT to happen?
note: it's illegal to kill people. it doesn't have to be illegal to own a gun.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 65 of 301 (398041)
04-29-2007 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Nuggin
04-28-2007 3:09 PM


Re: Lies on top of lies
I don't know where you are getting your numbers, but believe me the deathtoll from accidental shootings in the US is WAY higher than 32 this year. And you are claiming it's been less than 32 over the 200+ year history of the country? come on.
but he's provided at least some kidn of numbering, and you haven't. not here, and not in the last thread when i asked for it. don't make claims about this shit when you don't have the numbers yourself.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Nuggin, posted 04-29-2007 2:14 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 66 of 301 (398043)
04-29-2007 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by nator
04-28-2007 7:16 PM


Re: You, on the other hand, are right.
Some guns should be taken away from private citizens because there is no good reason for a private citizen to have them.
Alternatively, if private citizens think they need, say, certain military-style weapons, then the hoops they should have to jump through and the insurance they should be required to purchase aught to be extensive and significant.
It should be difficult to get them. Very difficult.
difficult, yes. impossible, no. remember the idea of invasion. we may think we're immune, but we aren't. not to mention our own government which is getting more fascist by the day.
There's a reason this kind of thing is extremely rare in Japan and Europe.
demonstrate rare. i'll buy it, just demonstrate it. keep in mind switzerland.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by nator, posted 04-28-2007 7:16 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Nuggin, posted 04-29-2007 2:17 AM macaroniandcheese has not replied
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 Message 100 by nator, posted 04-29-2007 10:22 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 67 of 301 (398044)
04-29-2007 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by nator
04-28-2007 7:53 PM


Re: so sad
” Access to firearms increases the risk of intimate partner homicide more than five times more
than in instances where there are no weapons, according to a recent study. In addition, abusers
who possess guns tend to inflict the most severe abuse on their partners.iv
...
” From 1998 to 2001, more than 2,800 people with misdemeanor domestic violence convictions
were able to purchase guns without being identified by the National Instant Criminal
Background Check System.x
i'll bet that's more likely a result of the kind of person who generally owns a weapon in the light of norms against them than any kind of sway the weapon may hold over an individual's desire to kill. and clearly the background check system is flawed. so we fix it.
Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 68 of 301 (398045)
04-29-2007 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Nuggin
04-28-2007 7:56 PM


Re: Lies on top of lies
the "crime menace" lurking out there waiting to break in and rape your women. But there's NO evidence that supports the theory.
how many years have you been a woman? you are aware that something like NEARLY EVERY WOMAN EVER has been sexually assaulted in some way?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Nuggin, posted 04-29-2007 2:21 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 69 of 301 (398046)
04-29-2007 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Jon
04-28-2007 5:06 PM


Re: Militia
i just wanted to say that even if no one else noted it, i appreciate your comment.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 95 of 301 (398083)
04-29-2007 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Nuggin
04-29-2007 2:12 AM


you say this as though i'm going to be offended by it.
it's not an honor system. there is a criminal system to respond to and punish those who offend.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 96 of 301 (398085)
04-29-2007 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Nuggin
04-29-2007 2:14 AM


Re: Lies on top of lies
the 24 hour time out was irrelevant because i'm not upset, and you're still making up shit.
scraf did come up with some numbers. but not the ones i ask you for.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 97 of 301 (398086)
04-29-2007 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Nuggin
04-29-2007 3:19 AM


Re: You, on the other hand, are right.
Anyway, my point was not that only drunk killbillies have handguns, it's that there is "a world of difference" between the two categories.
so you know that you are purposely conflating the issue. okay. that makes it all better.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 101 of 301 (398092)
04-29-2007 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Nuggin
04-29-2007 2:21 AM


Re: Lies on top of lies
Also, please additionally prove that these rapes would have been disuaded by the presence of a hand gun in the house, since that's what we are discussing.
i wasn't discussing this as a reason for gun ownership. i don't think individual protection has anything to do with the issue. i was referring to the fact that you seem to think that there's no real threat of rape. do you know six women? do you know that each of them lives wondering whether the next one is going to be her? you do understand that one in six is close enough to every woman ever when every one of those other five lives in fear of it. also, from what i can tell, those statistics of one in six and 200,000 reports are worldwide. there's no way that there are only 200,000 rapes worldwide in a year, not to mention if we add in assault. further, there's no discussion of distribution.
It strikes me like something I would have heard in the early 90s in which a term like "sexual assault" is expanded to include oogling.
are you insensitive on purpose, or does it just happen?
if you really want me to, i can go off about all the various ways i've been sexually assaulted and all the varisou ways my friends have been assaulted and all the various ways various insensitive people have assaulted women because they simply didn't care enough to be sure they were being appropriate. but i thought i'd be brief.
also, for those later in the thread who seem to think that being groped isn't really so bad. try it. sexual assault is the act of taking over the power another person has over his own body and using that power to violate him. it doesn't matter how "bad" that violation is, it is the nature not the degree of violation that matters. think about it this way. is it okay for daddy to just grope his little girl as long as he doesn't have sex with her? if it's not okay in this situation, there's nothing about growing up that makes it okay.
the law here defines sexual assault as
* Someone putting their finger, tongue, mouth, penis or an object in or on your vagina, penis or anus when you don’t want them to;
* Someone touching, fondling, kissing or making any unwanted contact with your body;
* Someone forcing you to perform oral sex or forcing you to receive oral sex;
* Someone forcing you to masturbate, forcing you to masturbate them, or fondling and touching you;
* Someone forcing you to look at sexually explicit material or forcing you to pose for sexually explicit pictures; and
* A doctor, nurse, or other health care professional giving you an unnecessary internal examination or touching your sexual organs in an unprofessional, unwarranted and inappropriate manner.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Nuggin, posted 04-29-2007 2:21 AM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 102 of 301 (398093)
04-29-2007 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Vacate
04-29-2007 7:42 AM


Re: You, on the other hand, are a freedom fighter?
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you're going to need bigger guns.
i know. which is why i've decided to start opposing all size- or action-based gun control.
This is often stated when people are defending the right to have guns. I wonder what would they do with these guns? This is the same population that is very proud to have the most powerful, modern, and best trained militay force in the world.
it would be hard, that is why it is vital to first be wholly involved politically, it's not really the system that's broken, just those running it.
what the American public intends to do once they decide their goverment has become too fascist?
i would hope that they would look up from their tv screens long enough to do ANYTHING, but i'm really not so sure.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by nator, posted 04-29-2007 11:30 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 103 of 301 (398094)
04-29-2007 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by nator
04-29-2007 10:22 AM


Re: You, on the other hand, are right.
I never suggested that we ban all private ownership of all firearms.
just checking.
Unless you are suggesting that all private citizens stockpile scads of military weapons, rockets, greandes, and mines, just what do you think a shotgun or two and some handguns are going to do against an invading foreign army, or the combined firepower of the US armed forces should martial law be imposed in the US?
i think the issue really is that there used to be stocked armories in almost every city. a few dozen fairly armed citizens could easily take an armory. but those have been turned into dance halls for old people. do we have a fighting chance? not really. but we should.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 104 of 301 (398096)
04-29-2007 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by nator
04-29-2007 10:09 AM


Re: You, on the other hand, are right.
In 1998, for every one time a woman used a handgun to kill a stranger in self-defense, 302 women were murdered in handgun homicides.
what about a non-stranger?

This message is a reply to:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 110 of 301 (398115)
04-29-2007 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by nator
04-29-2007 11:30 AM


Re: You, on the other hand, are a freedom fighter?
Liberalizing gun laws will only get more people killed.
i'm willing to consider well-aimed psychological and arrest restrictions with waiting periods--as long as there is a concerted effort to ensure that there is low risk of abusing the system by falsely labeling political enemies (a little conspiracy theory never hurt anyone). it should be hard to get weapons. of course i'm all about mandatory public service, including military service. it just probably isn't compatible with the particular brand of personal choice which is protected here. but i think a couple years of mandatory service could positively affect the lives and perspectives of americans.
Unless you are suggesting that every private citizen and every town and city spend billions of dollars arming themselves to the teeth, it simply won't matter.
not really. just that we bring back local armories, especially in border areas and around the capitals and big cities. it has been clearly demonstrated in every major disaster in the last 6 years that the federal government is incapable of responding properly to domestic issues (and clearly not so well to foreign ones either). we need to be able and prepared to respond--for our own safety.

This message is a reply to:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 117 of 301 (398130)
04-29-2007 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by nator
04-29-2007 12:06 PM


Re: You, on the other hand, are a freedom fighter?
much lower. but that's a solvable problem. with the reinstitution of local armories, there should be a local armory club which seeks to educate the public on gun safety. the issue of gun safety, like the issue of sex ed is one we should be active in, rather than ignoring or banning and hoping it will go away, especially because of the (still unnumbered, thanks to nuggin) incidence of "accidental" killings. should it be part of the public school program like sex ed is? probably not. but people concerned with this should probably be behind some kind of public education campaign.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by nator, posted 04-29-2007 12:06 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by nator, posted 04-29-2007 12:19 PM macaroniandcheese has replied
 Message 128 by Nuggin, posted 04-29-2007 12:37 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

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