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Author Topic:   Guns
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 809 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 166 of 301 (398211)
04-29-2007 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Jon
04-29-2007 5:41 PM


Re: —CREDIBLE sources anybody?—
Personal attack? Our debate is over.

Translation: Oh crap, my pants are down. Um, I gotta go!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Jon, posted 04-29-2007 5:41 PM Jon has not yet responded

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 809 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 167 of 301 (398213)
04-29-2007 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by nator
04-29-2007 6:34 PM


Re: Excuse me?
Click on my avatar. It's me.

You're a horse?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by nator, posted 04-29-2007 6:34 PM nator has not yet responded

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 809 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 168 of 301 (398215)
04-29-2007 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by macaroniandcheese
04-29-2007 6:47 PM


Bren, I'm getting tired of having to explain this
Yawn.

Okay Bren, let's try this again. Concentrate hard now, I need you to follow along.

Here's what you said that I said:

all americans with guns are insecure hillbillies;

all people with guns are homocidal maniacs incapable of self-control;

all people who oppose gun control want every person to own and use immense, outdated WWI equipment;

the constitution only protects single shot arms;

Instead of stabbing a person in the arm, a drunken fool's only action with a gun would be to shoot the victim between the eyes.

But the quotes you list in your long post do not support your claims. In fact, they frequently go against what you claiming that I said.

Are you just confused? Or are you trying to disprove yourself?

You've certainly lost me in your musings.

It seems to me that you are trying to disprove what I am saying, so for convience, I'll list some of the statements that you hand picked. Why don't you go ahead and disprove them.

1) There is a world of difference between a national guardsman and a drunken hillbilly.

2) The Swiss are issued military weapons as part of their national service.

3) Many (I'll even say MOST) drunk hillbillies own at least 1 gun.

4) If a drunk were to shoot someone in the head, they would need more than stitches.

5) Bad parents should not have a stockpile of automatic weapons on hand for their kids to play with.

6) One-Wing thinks that the presence of guns keeps a crimewave at bay.

I fail to see how you've disproved any of the above statements. In fact, I'm rather boggled that you disagree with any of them.

Perhaps you'd like to enlighten us.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by macaroniandcheese, posted 04-29-2007 6:47 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by macaroniandcheese, posted 04-29-2007 8:27 PM Nuggin has responded

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 809 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 169 of 301 (398216)
04-29-2007 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by macaroniandcheese
04-29-2007 6:55 PM


Bren, do you know what a gun is?
Okay, Bren, I've tried to be nice about this, but I really have to ask.

Do you know what a "gun" is? Because you are claiming that more people die from accidental stabbings than from accidental shootings. It makes me wonder if you are a little sketchy on the definitions.

As for numbers - this is from the recent Newsweek Apr 30/2007 Pg 44 and 45
United States annual gun death toll
29,645 Deaths breaking down to 11920 Homocides, 16869 Suicides and 856 Unintentional.

So that's 856 accidental shooting deaths, or about 3 a day.

How many accidental stabbing deaths have you found? 10? 15?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by macaroniandcheese, posted 04-29-2007 6:55 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by macaroniandcheese, posted 04-29-2007 8:40 PM Nuggin has responded

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2244 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 170 of 301 (398218)
04-29-2007 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Nuggin
04-29-2007 7:24 PM


Re: Bren, I'm getting tired of having to explain this
what i'm saying is:

there is a huge expanse of gun owners between the swiss and drunken hillbillies and you've artificially created the dichotomy.

you've created the false reality that the only place a drunk person would accidentally shoot someone is in the head.

that people stockpile automatic weapons for their children to play with or that these are the only people who own automatic weapons

and that you're a pain.

Okay Bren, let's try this again. Concentrate hard now, I need you to follow along.

oh, that's mature.

Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Nuggin, posted 04-29-2007 7:24 PM Nuggin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Nuggin, posted 04-29-2007 10:00 PM macaroniandcheese has not yet responded

nator
Member (Idle past 486 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 171 of 301 (398220)
04-29-2007 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by macaroniandcheese
04-29-2007 6:55 PM


Re: Excuse me?
quote:
schraf's post didn't include numbers on accidental deaths, but rather gun use in domestic violence and homicide where women were victimized.

Yes it did, actually.

I bolded it, even.

Suicides accounted for about 58 percent of gun fatalities, or 17,000 to 18,000 deaths, in 2001; another 11,000 deaths, or 37 percent, were homicides, and the remaining 800 to 900 gun deaths were accidental.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by macaroniandcheese, posted 04-29-2007 6:55 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by macaroniandcheese, posted 04-29-2007 8:51 PM nator has not yet responded

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2244 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 172 of 301 (398221)
04-29-2007 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Nuggin
04-29-2007 7:36 PM


Re: Bren, do you know what a gun is?
Because you are claiming that more people die from accidental stabbings than from accidental shootings.

i'm claiming nothing of the sort. see? there you go again building strawmen to attack the intelligence of your opponents. i just ask for some fucking numbers.

As for numbers - this is from the recent Newsweek Apr 30/2007 Pg 44 and 45
United States annual gun death toll
29,645 Deaths breaking down to 11920 Homocides, 16869 Suicides and 856 Unintentional.

thank you. jesus. was that so fucking hard?

so we have 12 thousand homicides which are already illegal
17 thousand suicides which could be prevented with counseling
and 900 accidental deaths which could be prevented with some simple safety courses or safety measures.

How many accidental stabbing deaths have you found? 10? 15?

i'm not interested in stabbing deaths. you're the one that brought these up. i simply used it to illustrate the question i was asking since you keep mentioning them. i'm frankly not even concerned with accidental deaths outside of asking you for the above numbers. with me it's really another undue burden question. it doesn't place an undue burden on a prospective gun owner to require a waiting period, a family-wide safety class, a psychological evaluation, a background check, and to require that a gun and ammo is safely locked away in some fashion (even if it's a locked nightstand drawer). it does create an undue burden to ban the ownership of all firearms. where should the line exist of what arms are permitted? i really don't know. i'm tempted towards no restrictions of variety except maybe through longer waiting periods and stricter background searches.

we don't restrict rights without very clear and demonstrable proof. i understand that people can be killed more easily with a gun. i also understand that that's kind of the point.

i also understand that the guy at vt had previously tried to purchase the supplies necessary to build a bomb. there are lots of ways to kill people and lots of ways to stop people from doing crazy shit. if we know now that he tried to buy fertilizer, why couldn't we have known then? should there be an alert on people with past involuntary psychological institutionalization who try to buy anything that might contribute to killing? maybe. would that be more useful than an all out ban on various tools or substances?

and why the fuck can't i buy sudafed. i'm dying. goddamnit.
sorry. completely off-topic.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Nuggin, posted 04-29-2007 7:36 PM Nuggin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by nator, posted 04-29-2007 8:59 PM macaroniandcheese has responded
 Message 179 by Nuggin, posted 04-29-2007 10:05 PM macaroniandcheese has not yet responded

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2244 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 173 of 301 (398222)
04-29-2007 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by nator
04-29-2007 8:37 PM


Re: Excuse me?
really? must have missed it. oh well. eyeballs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by nator, posted 04-29-2007 8:37 PM nator has not yet responded

nator
Member (Idle past 486 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 174 of 301 (398223)
04-29-2007 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by macaroniandcheese
04-29-2007 8:40 PM


Re: Bren, do you know what a gun is?
Nobody in this thread has said, even once that all guns should be banned.

Why do the pro-gun people always hear that the minute anybody starts saying how crazy it is that tens of thousands of people die very year from the easy access to handguns in this country? It is a complete kneejerk response.

quote:
so we have 12 thousand homicides which are already illegal

And mostly preventable if handguns and ammunition weren't so cheap and easy to get.

"It's not as if a 19-year-old in the United States is more evil than a 19-year-old in Australia—there's no evidence for that," Hemenway explains. "But a 19-year-old in America can very easily get a pistol. That's very hard to do in Australia. So when there's a bar fight in Australia, somebody gets punched out or hit with a beer bottle. Here, they get shot."

Mind you, there would still be plenty of violence, just not nearly as many deaths.

quote:
17 thousand suicides which could be prevented with counseling

And mostly prevented or reduced to failed attempts if handguns and ammunition weren't so cheap and easy to get.

From http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/090433.htmlhere:

In general, guns don't induce people to commit crimes. "What guns do is make crimes lethal," says Hemenway. They also make suicide attempts lethal: about 60 percent of suicides in America involve guns. "If you try to kill yourself with drugs, there's a 2 to 3 percent chance of dying," he explains. "With guns, the chance is 90 percent."

Many suicides, similarly, are impulsive acts. Follow-up interviews with people who survived jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge reveal that few of them tried suicide again. One survivor volunteered this epiphany after jumping: "I realized that all the problems I had in life were solvable—except one: I'm in midair." In the United States, suicide rates are high in states with an abundance of guns—southern and western mountain states, for example—and lower in places like New Jersey, New England, or Hawaii, where guns are relatively scarce. Nine case-control studies have shown that guns in the house are a risk factor for suicide. Firearms turn the agonizing into the irreversible.

You know what the first sign that someone is suicidal often is?

They attemt suicide.

quote:
and 900 accidental deaths which could be prevented with some simple safety courses or safety measures.

I don't think "simple" safety courses are enough.

People say, 'Teach kids not to pull the trigger,' but kids will do it," Hemenway says. In a 2001 study, for example, small groups of boys from 8 to 12 years old spent 15 minutes in a room where a handgun was hidden in a drawer. More than two-thirds discovered the gun, more than half the groups handled it, and in more than a third of the groups someone pulled the trigger—despite the fact that more than 90 percent of the boys in the latter groups had received gun-safety instruction.

Tthe gun manufacturers need some regulations put on them to put child safety locks on all handguns. The NRA also needs to stop fighting such regulations, or the government needs to ignore the NRA.

And you can buy sudafed. You just have to ask for it at the counter.

Edited by nator, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by macaroniandcheese, posted 04-29-2007 8:40 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by macaroniandcheese, posted 04-29-2007 9:17 PM nator has responded

crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 175 of 301 (398224)
04-29-2007 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Jon
04-28-2007 4:51 PM


Re: Militia
You know this is a fallacious statement;

It's actually three statements, and as far as I can tell, none of them are fallacious. The first statement is a statement of fact (and if it were wrong, you would have been able to provide a counter-example, which you did not do.) The second is a statement of my opinion (which cannot be factually incorrect by definition; my opinion is what I tell you it is.) The third is a statement of what I support, which, again, is not something you can disprove.

and you know that someone was bound to point it out to you.

Point what out, exactly? As far as I can see you've just made accusations of unspecified fallacies without defending them.

Explain to me how what other civilizations have done is even half-way relevant in deciding what is right for the here and now.

Only a great idiot would ignore the example of the past when setting policy for the present and future. If you disagree with my position, and you believe that it would be much better for everyone if gun ownership were unrestricted in any way, and that anyone who wanted a gun could procure one instantly and cheaply, then by all means, advance and support that argument.

Otherwise? You'll have to bring something much better to the table than "your argument is fallacious because I say it is."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Jon, posted 04-28-2007 4:51 PM Jon has not yet responded

crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 176 of 301 (398225)
04-29-2007 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Nuggin
04-28-2007 3:16 PM


Re: So, what does the 2nd amendment mean to you?
However, it's a LOT harder to kill someone with a .22 than it is to kill someone with a 9mm.

In fact, I saw a cops episode where a fat kid in jeans was running away from a guy who shot at him with a .22 and it didn't break his skin. I kid you not. It left a hell of a welt, but no penatration.

.22 long rifle? Or .22 pistol?

Did you even know there was a difference? .22 long rifle has enough energy by far to penetrate jeans and blubber; but the worst part is - it doesn't have enough energy to penetrate the other side. So it (or it's fragments) usually bounce around within the skull or chest cavity, shredding brain matter and organs.

.22 is more than sufficient to be lethal - and indeed, many impacts that would be survivable with a through-and-through 9mm bullet become kill shots with the .22.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Nuggin, posted 04-28-2007 3:16 PM Nuggin has responded

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2244 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 177 of 301 (398226)
04-29-2007 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by nator
04-29-2007 8:59 PM


Re: Bren, do you know what a gun is?
Nobody in this thread has said, even once that all guns should be banned.

and yet no one has suggested their "comprehensive policy plan," which i have tried to do in a few posts. (not the above one.)

And mostly preventable if handguns and ammunition weren't so cheap and easy to get.

absolutely. tax, tax, tax. it's brilliant stuff really.

Mind you, there would still be plenty of violence, just not nearly as many deaths.

sure. if all we had access to was paper, people would slice each other to death. it would take a long time, but someone would try.

"If you try to kill yourself with drugs, there's a 2 to 3 percent chance of dying"

i think that depends on the drug and whether you take to little and make yourself sick or too much and reject it.

You know what the first sign that someone is suicidal often is?

They attemt suicide.

maybe it's the first sign people notice, but i really doubt it's the first actual sign.

I don't think "simple" safety courses are enough.

i think they are. just saying "this isn't a toy" can do a great deal. now when i say simple, i don't mean short or overly basic, i mean safe gun training like you take to get a license but based on age and whether that person should be handling the gun or not. also, requiring that guns be locked up at all times unless in use or transit by the licensed owner(s) is a big help.

Tthe gun manufacturers need some regulations put on them to put child safety locks on all handguns.

absolutely. i think that qualifies as an above mentioned mandatory safety measure.

The NRA also needs to stop fighting such regulations, or the government needs to ignore the NRA.

the nra can go fuck itself.

You just have to ask for it at the counter.

that means being there before the counter closes. *shakes fist*

i'm really just trying to bring in a little lightheartedness. cause this whole thread has its panties in a bunch. i understand it's a very serious matter, but it really doesn't require the kind of nastiness that's going on.

Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by nator, posted 04-29-2007 8:59 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by nator, posted 04-29-2007 10:14 PM macaroniandcheese has responded
 Message 182 by Nuggin, posted 04-29-2007 10:15 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 809 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 178 of 301 (398231)
04-29-2007 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by macaroniandcheese
04-29-2007 8:27 PM


Re: Bren, I'm getting tired of having to explain this
See reply to above post

Edited by Nuggin, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by macaroniandcheese, posted 04-29-2007 8:27 PM macaroniandcheese has not yet responded

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 809 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 179 of 301 (398232)
04-29-2007 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by macaroniandcheese
04-29-2007 8:40 PM


Re: Bren, do you know what a gun is?
See reply to post above the one above this one :)

Edited by Nuggin, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by macaroniandcheese, posted 04-29-2007 8:40 PM macaroniandcheese has not yet responded

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 809 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 180 of 301 (398234)
04-29-2007 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by crashfrog
04-29-2007 9:16 PM


Re: So, what does the 2nd amendment mean to you?
.22 long rifle? Or .22 pistol?

This is in reference to the "superman" kid on cops. Though I use "cops" as a blanket term, it could have been the LAPD knock off or Tails of the Highway Patrol.

The cops arrived after the incident had happened, so I have no idea what type of gun it way. Though given that it was on the street, I'm going to assume pistol - and given that it didn't break the skin, I'm going to guess a cheap ass pistol at that.

It wasn't meant as a "here's proof" kind of story. It was just an amusing anecdote


This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by crashfrog, posted 04-29-2007 9:16 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

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