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Author Topic:   "Evidence and Faith"
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 1 of 303 (397486)
04-26-2007 8:52 AM


I wanted to ask if creation science is valid at all, but this is too broad of a question. Obviously most here think that the method of creation science is not valid, as it does not follow the scientific method, or at least the people doing it seem not too.
But in all the years so far that creation science has been around, has there every been any solid (objective) evidence that the world was created?
I ask this question because believe it or not, in my church I am an outspoken component against mentioning things of science in church, or things like orbs in pictures, and gems found on peoples lawns are evidence of God. I speak against "proving God", or more correctly, "objectively proving God"
I am not well liked when I speak these things out, and I have been told that people can believe what they want to believe, and I guess they obviously can say whatever they want to say. I am not comfortable with that. About the only one that really has a realistic view on it, is the senior Pastor, and when I point these things out to him, he corrects himself, and realizes that the church should not be promoting these ideas.
I am planning on approaching the entire elder committee, and Pastors, as well as the core leaders (I am one of the core leaders) on this matter, but I want to put it together in a manor that they will realize that what they are doing is incorrect. Answering this question is one step in that direction.
This whole issue may determine if I stay in the church or not. This is a difficult decision, as I influence many people, and I am a mentor for many.
I had a meeting with my Senior Pastor, and explained this to him. He will accept what I give him, and consider it. If it is truth, then he will present it to the church, as it would probably go over better coming from him. With your help, I can help rid one church of phoney miracles, and possibly preaching about creation science. But I need to get my facts on order.
I already have the proof about orbs in pictures, and enough evidence about the phoney gems. Also, the phrase "proving God" should be eliminated for obvious reasons, as nothing in science is ever "proven."
Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.
Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminPhat, posted 04-26-2007 9:03 AM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 3 by Admin, posted 04-26-2007 9:21 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 7 by jar, posted 05-02-2007 12:29 PM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 8 by PaulK, posted 05-02-2007 1:32 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 13 by sidelined, posted 05-02-2007 10:50 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 80 by kuresu, posted 05-08-2007 6:10 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 238 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-01-2007 3:20 PM riVeRraT has not replied
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 4 of 303 (397572)
04-26-2007 4:03 PM


My central question is in bold, and yes I agree with you phat.
faith and belief sounds fine, and changing the title is fine with me also.

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 5 of 303 (398710)
05-02-2007 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Admin
04-26-2007 9:21 AM


I changed it around a bit, can we promote it? I want to move on this subject in my church.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Admin, posted 04-26-2007 9:21 AM Admin has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 9 of 303 (398849)
05-02-2007 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by PaulK
05-02-2007 1:32 PM


By "the world" do you mean the planet Earth, our Universe or something else ?
By "created" do you mean that some intelligent entity somehow had a hand in the origin of the world - perhaps indirectly - or that an intelligent entity directly made the world or even that the world simply had an origin ?
I think we should go with the creation science definition found in wikipedia for this discussion.
Creation science - Wikipedia
I do not agree with jar, the fact that the earth exists, is not proof that it was created. It is proof that it exists, as we percieve it, and nothing more
The creation of the bible, and of God, is saying that He made something from nothing. This is what creation science is trying to find out and prove.
I do not even agree with this. I feel that if you were truely performing creation science, you would be looking for unbiased evidence that the world was created, doesn't matter by who.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by PaulK, posted 05-02-2007 1:32 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Taz, posted 05-02-2007 10:25 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 11 by jar, posted 05-02-2007 10:49 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 16 by PaulK, posted 05-03-2007 2:36 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 12 of 303 (398861)
05-02-2007 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Taz
05-02-2007 10:25 PM


You are still getting this wrong. True science doesn't start out with a conclusion. If the term "creation science" doesn't demonstrate conclusion first, I don't know what is.
I am not getting wrong. The world exists, that is a fact.
There can be hypothesis that say, the world was created, and then try to prove it, or come up with a theory. I don't know, and I don't care really.
To me, it is no different than knowing cancer exists, and spending all my days trying to find a cure.
The way the creation scientists, and AiG go about it, seem wrong to me. They should label it Christian science, os something else, for the time being until they could prove something.
But your input is not helping me.
I am not here to argue for the validity of creation science, or if creation science is science at all. I am only asking if there has been any valid evidence of the creation of the world, do not turn this into a creation science, is not science thread. Please refer to the op question in bold.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 14 of 303 (398863)
05-02-2007 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
05-02-2007 10:49 PM


So we do know that the Earth was created.
Created? No, it was formed, or made, from existing materials.
Created implies that someone or something did the creating, something other than physics, or the laws of the universe. You are drifting off topic.
As soon as you put the "by" in there, you stop doing science.
No you don't. You only stop doing one kind of science. Forensic science studies how people did something, it looks to find the "by".
As I asked Taz, please do not turn this into the cretion science is not science thread.
I am looking for evidence of the world being created, NOT FORMED.

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 Message 11 by jar, posted 05-02-2007 10:49 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by ikabod, posted 05-04-2007 3:47 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 15 of 303 (398864)
05-02-2007 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by sidelined
05-02-2007 10:50 PM


What would have to be evidenced in order for us to determine that a planet has been created or not RR?
I don't know. Isn't that what creation science is trying to prove?
Isn't there always some other explanation for the evidences that creation science always comes up with? One more practical and realistic?
I am turing to the experts for answers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by sidelined, posted 05-02-2007 10:50 PM sidelined has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 17 of 303 (398967)
05-03-2007 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by PaulK
05-03-2007 2:36 AM


So I would characterise the claim under discussion as asserting that the universe (including the Earth) was directly created by an intelligent entity no more than 10,000 years ago.
I don't think it has to be 10,000 years ago. Isn't Genesis unspecific enough to allow for any amount of time to have passed?
Aren't there 2 kinds of creationists, young earth, and old earth?
Does it really matter if we are doing science, when the earth was created? Only that it was created?
I personally don't think it was created such a short time ago.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by PaulK, posted 05-03-2007 2:36 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 05-03-2007 9:20 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 19 by PaulK, posted 05-03-2007 10:19 AM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 23 by Phat, posted 05-04-2007 10:02 AM riVeRraT has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 21 of 303 (399153)
05-04-2007 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by jar
05-03-2007 9:20 AM


Yes, I am well aware of that jar. I am an ameture astronomer, and try to stay up on what is going on out there.
Those planets are not being created, they are being formed.
Let's stick to those definitions for purposes of this discussion.
Plus, you are limiting it to just the earth, I said the world, which means everything in it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 05-03-2007 9:20 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 05-04-2007 10:10 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 22 of 303 (399155)
05-04-2007 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by ikabod
05-04-2007 3:47 AM


Your post brings up a point I will be making to my Pastor.
That is, when it comes to God, we have faith to believe in Him. When it comes to going to the doctor, we have science. I am sure most people would not approve of the methods that creation scientists use to have them operate on them.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by nator, posted 05-04-2007 10:18 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 31 of 303 (399173)
05-04-2007 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by jar
05-04-2007 10:10 AM


Re: Why must you diminish and belittle GOD?
No, I agree with you.
I think you are missing the point.
How do I tell my Pastor that creation science is full of it?
And if it is not full of it, then what should I tell him about it.
I want to do that with authority.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 05-04-2007 10:10 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 05-04-2007 10:26 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 36 by jar, posted 05-04-2007 10:45 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 37 by Equinox, posted 05-04-2007 3:55 PM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 34 of 303 (399177)
05-04-2007 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by nator
05-04-2007 10:18 AM


Of course, by your own admission, you "hate" studies, so I don't know why you would have a problem with a doctor who ignores them.
I don't have a problem with that nator. BTW, not every single study is wrong.
As long as what my doctor is doing cures my problem, then he can go ahead and ignore that study. Example, for years I have felt that doctors pump way too much medicine into us. Now according to the latest studys, the doctors have found out to let peoples own immune systems handle the job, and to strengthen that immune system with proper diets, is really the better thing to do.
Probably with each study, there is an opposing study, so what good are studies then, except to get us to think?
I know a doctor who wrote on the perscription to read the bible.
That actually seemed to work for that person.
To me, that doctor ignored a study (somewhere I am sure) and I find that refreshing.
If we are going to ignore study's then we should at least rely on God, that is faith. I don't have a rpoblem with that.
I know several people who choose to do that, and by some magic they were cured. But there are no miracles right?
It's all about finding that line between what is truth, and what is not. I don't want people to give up their fiath just because science exists, but the kind of science that looks to prove God, to me, is all born from a religious spirit, something that both me and my Pastor hate.
You cannot prove God to anyone, except by love. Any religion or science that is attempting to do so, is just wrong IMO, and shouldn't be preached in the church I go to, if I can help it.
But if I do not present it correctly, then they will continue to so it, and believe in stuff that just isn't true. Sooner or later, the truth will reveal itself to people, then be drawn away from God, because they were lied to.

This message is a reply to:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 35 of 303 (399179)
05-04-2007 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
05-04-2007 10:26 AM


Re: Why must you diminish and belittle GOD?
Read msg 34 on some of the reasons why.
I do not think it would be better to find a new church, because of a few reasons.
1. I see atheists as good people. People who seek truth. They can't find it in the church, and will do nothing to change the church, and I do not want to be one of the ones who runs fromt he church just because they are not preaching what I like. I would rather try to change it first, then if they do not accept it, then I will have to consider accepting them the way they are, or moving along.
2. According to our core relational values, I can speak my mind to them,(in truth and love) and this is a test of their own values. If they fail, then I know I shouldn't be there.
If I can make a difference in a few hundreds peoples lives, and get them to more focus on what is right from God, then, thats is what I will do. IT is part of my calling. We as a church, and a body of Christ should only be following the two greatest commandments. IT is pretty simple, and all this creation science, and gems, and orbs, do not fit into those descriptions.
Jesus was pretty emphatic about loving others.
He told us to focus on the unseen, not the seen.
When the woman touched his robe, and she was healed, Jesus didn't turn to her and say "see, that proves I am God" He said "your faith has healed you".
All these other things, lead to religious condeming spirits, and I want no part of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 05-04-2007 10:26 AM Phat has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 39 of 303 (399662)
05-07-2007 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by jar
05-04-2007 10:45 AM


Re: Why must you diminish and belittle GOD?
The issue is with you wanting "Authority."
Unfortunately, the solution is reason not authority, and I am not at all sure that your Pastor is open to reason.
When I say authority, I mean to back up my words with evidence.
And my Pastor is very interested, and already expressed that he agrees with me, if I can back up what I say, and put everything into context.
Creation Science is full of it because it starts with the conclusion.
I know this has been argued a thousand times over here, but doesn't many sciences start with a conclusion?
Should it matter if the conclusion is subjective or not?
Wouldn't real science eventually show those seeking the answer, the truth?
My beef isn't with people doing creation science, as much as it is with them ignoring the facts.
Creation Science operates on the exact same theology as the Biblical Literalists. Any conceivable answer is okay if it meets their needs, whether it is true or not.
So, how do I show this to my Pastor?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 05-04-2007 10:45 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by nator, posted 05-07-2007 9:49 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 43 by jar, posted 05-07-2007 11:02 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 40 of 303 (399666)
05-07-2007 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Equinox
05-04-2007 3:55 PM


Re: Why must you diminish and belittle GOD?
Thank you so much, for such an awesome reply.
This will take some time to go through it.
PS. As far as where to start with your pastor, perhaps one good way to start would be to slowly and clearly go through case after case after case of clear and undeniable creationist deception to reveal how utterly immoral they often are. Maybe the Darwin eye quote mine, the Paluxy hoax, the Lady Hope story, the moon dust, the japanese plesiosaur, the deception used to say that the flagellum can't evolve, etc. There are many more to list, so I'd focus on the ones I was most comfortable with.
This is an excellent place to start.
There are plenty of places to start with your pastor, maybe the idea that evolution shows how wonderful God's creation is (that it can change freely), or how supported evolution is. I'm suggesting the above method (exposing the deceptions), but you may know a better way.
I think in order for this to go over well, it is all in how I present it. I want to do it in a language that he, and the church can easily understand. I am hoping that I can even involve the bible in this discussion to show how we should not be taking this approach i.e. false prophets, two greatest commandments, idols, the woman's subjective faith that healed her when she touched Jesus's rope, etc.
What you pointed out that atheists have doubled since in 80's, should be a genuine concern for the Pastor.
Sometimes I (and maybe phat too) see atheists as being people that are going to save real Christianity. We now live in a society where we can speak out against what is wrong, and the truth can come through.
I will be spending the next few days reviewing your post, thanks again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Equinox, posted 05-04-2007 3:55 PM Equinox has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by nator, posted 05-07-2007 9:51 AM riVeRraT has replied

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