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Author Topic:   Is Anything Evil? Does Evil Exist?
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 1 of 105 (398658)
05-02-2007 2:23 AM


In the thread: Miscellaneous Topics in Creation/Evolution Do we talk up or down to fundies?, a side issue developed that I think is worthy of a new thread.
The questions are these:
1. Is anything evil?
Does evil exist?
I believe it is absurd to label everything as natural. If we do, then we are positing an absolute that has horrific implications for our ability to protest anything with logical consistency. I would like to begin my support for that view, by addressing Razd's reply to a comment of mine in the other thread.
------------------------
Rob:Because if you are correct, then what exactly did Cho do at Virginia Tech which was unnatural?
Razd:
So how do you explain this to "fundies" ...
Of course it was "natural" - nature is neither good nor evil.
I wanted to establish that comment by Razd first... Now look at the next line.
Razd:
What Cho did was a result of impulses. The processing of those impulses may have been faulty (chemical or neurological imbalance due to environment, genetics or some combination), but that doesn't make it unnatural.
So these faults and imbalances are natural?
If so, why would we want to label them as faults or imbalances?
Nature appears to be imbalanced in many respects. But if it is all 'natural' and therefore just simply reality, then there is no difference between that which is 'in balance' and that which is 'out of balance'. It is what it is.
Perhpas the Cho's of our society, as well as the Bushes are only natures equivilant of a Black Hole. They clean up amongst societies as natures other destroyers clean up galaxies.
Please note that my arguments are offered against the idea of everything being natural. They are only constructed as a devil's advocate so as to make my point. I include the name of president Bush because he is seen as an evil by those who tend to believe that all is natural. I personally find no moral equivilent between the two.
Under your own philosophy, we have no basis upon which to judge Mr. Cho (or president Bush)other than some illusory perception created by our society (which itself is also perfectly natural). So there is no such thing as something illusory, or faults, or imbalances. There is no such thing as truth, and no such thing as a lie. You are Bush, and Bush is me, and I am a rock, and Hoot Mon is litterally an owl.
Rob: And consider this... if everything is natural, then from where did the idea of that which is 'unatural' (religion) originate?
Razd:
From the conceit that we individuals\humans are something special.
Razd, according to your own philosophy... conceit is perfectly natural. Yet... you imply fault or imbalance is contained therein.
Mis. Topics c/e

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by kuresu, posted 05-02-2007 3:20 AM Rob has not replied
 Message 3 by Nuggin, posted 05-02-2007 3:24 AM Rob has replied
 Message 4 by Larni, posted 05-02-2007 3:45 AM Rob has not replied
 Message 5 by Archer Opteryx, posted 05-02-2007 8:46 AM Rob has replied
 Message 8 by Percy, posted 05-02-2007 10:05 AM Rob has replied
 Message 23 by Tusko, posted 05-02-2007 7:15 PM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 6 of 105 (398706)
05-02-2007 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Nuggin
05-02-2007 3:24 AM


Re: What is evil?
Nuggin:
Don't think you can ask "Does evil exist?" without first answering the question "What is evil?"
I don't mean, name an action or historical event or person which is an example of "evil". That's not going to forward the debate.
I mean, how do we define evil?
I ask that you listen very carefully. I am going to look at the logic of this and it requires that we prepare for tough and deep observation of issue. No flippancy need apply.
Evil is not something you can directly observed in terms of a definition (as you showed with Dictionary.com's defference to morality) because it keeps shifting to something else. That does not mean however that we can deny it's existence, because the same applies to 'matter' or light.
If you can deny evil based upon your argument, then I can deny the material universe and my own existence.
Very quickly (as Kuresus perceived) logic itself vaporously dissintigrates into muddled states of confusion.
Evil is something you cannot define emperically, but neither is 'matter'. Do you believe in atoms?
In both cases, to deny it's existence is to make a logically contradictory statement. Read this sentance and plug either of the two into it:
If evil [/ matter] does not exist, then when you say 'evil [/ matter]', what exactly are you talking about?
The denial of either (and we're focusing upon evil) is strictly 'unaffirmable'. And the fact that it is self defeating and contradictory, proves that it is false. I am of course assuming, that logic is our only valid tool in examining this philosophically. And my assumption is also self evident and inarguable, unless you are prepaered to embrace incoherence and contradiction as an acceptable argument. Yet all I see, is you demanding it from me.
You know... Ravi Zacharius tells the story of being on an airplane after leaving a major asian city that he did not name. He happened to be sitting next to a Dutch woman, and after some pleasantries discovered that she was also a Christian.
He asked her what she had been doing in that country and she told him she was involved in rescuing children from some horrible conditions that absoultely debased human dignity.
She said that on this trip she saw the worst thing she had ever seen. She said 'there is a place in the city we just left called Snake Alley. It is a place where the men come after work and are given a concoction of liquor and snakes blood. It ravages the mind. Then thay are treated to their hearts desire even though they make their request before consuming the beverage'.
She said, 'Mr Zacharius, I rescued an 18 month old baby girl from the hands of a man who was sexually devestating her.'
And in relating the story to the denial of evil, Ravi asked: 'You want to tell me there is no such things as evil?
You want to call that deviant...
aberant...
A SLIP?
We simply cannot deny the reality of evil, and that it is antithetical to peace, justice, mercy, truth, order, and God in all of it's levels of clever maneuvering. It's inane attempts to remain hidden and undiscovered reveal the desperate wickedness of your heart and mine that the Bible so clearly proclaims.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Nuggin, posted 05-02-2007 3:24 AM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Nuggin, posted 05-02-2007 11:15 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 7 of 105 (398707)
05-02-2007 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Archer Opteryx
05-02-2007 8:46 AM


Peace and patience
Archer:
Please define evil and good as you use the terms.
Please define nature as you use the term. Then delineate between the two ideas of 'non-nature' you are putting into play: the unnatural and the supernatural.
Define matter for me Archer...
If you want nature and non-nature (in the ultimate sense beyond the material) read message 6.
But if you disagree, then perhaps you can explain to me how the illustration I gave to dramatize my theoretical logic, is actually an improper application to the every day world.
Everyone take their time. We're getting to the heart of the matter. We're euphamistically applying the 'scanning electron microscope' of logic, to observe the implications of denying the reality of evil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Archer Opteryx, posted 05-02-2007 8:46 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Archer Opteryx, posted 05-03-2007 5:13 AM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 9 of 105 (398715)
05-02-2007 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Percy
05-02-2007 10:05 AM


Percy:
I think what you're trying to argue is that qualities like evil, deceit, envy, greed, etc., are departures from what is natural. But if we're all evil, as you argued in another thread, then everyone is a departure from the natural. If no one actually conforms to your concept of what is natural, then it only exists as a sort of ideal and not as a reality.
So, you deny the purity of Christ, and therefore the resolution to these problems and questions that you proclaim exist and are insoluble for me?
It simply depends upon what you believe in.
This message encapsulates the difficulty: http://EvC Forum: Is Anything Evil? Does Evil Exist? -->EvC Forum: Is Anything Evil? Does Evil Exist?
Perhpas you can begin to perceive how interrelated these recent posts of mine are. I hope someone catches the Spirit of it, for it's purposes are honest and pure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Percy, posted 05-02-2007 10:05 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Percy, posted 05-02-2007 10:45 AM Rob has not replied
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 05-02-2007 10:52 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 31 of 105 (398875)
05-03-2007 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Nuggin
05-02-2007 11:15 AM


Re: What is evil?
Nuggin
You've made a poor arguement when you said that "evil" is like "light" or "matter".
Obviously, both light and matter can be empirically observed. Where as "evil" can not.
"The most emperically verifiable reality is the depravity of man. Yet, at the same time, it is the most intellectually resisted fact!" (Malcomb Muggeridge)
Like matter, evil is manifested into the physical world. Gravity is emperically verifiable too, but we do not know what it is. We see the effects, so we know it exists. The same goes for good and evil. Pinning down the precise definitions of any of the above is an impossible proposition.
What we can say with absolute certainty, is that all of the above exist.
Nuggin:
An action can be observed, it can be labelled "evil", but the action is still the action. It's the opinion of the observer about the action that makes it evil.
So in ytour opinion, and depending upon one's worldview, it could be reasonable for some people to ravage an 18 month old baby girl after consuming a mind altering beverage all the while planning and deciding to do so while sober?
The action itself, is only the manifestation of the cause. It is the cause that I am attempting to shed light upon.
Nuggin:
If on the other hand you feel that evil is objective, you should be able to give a rock solid definition.
It is only the motivation of the individual that exposes the objective evil. It is the intentional laying down of one's reason and thinking process (conscious) so as to indulge and plunder physical pleasure at the expense of another persons (or society's) well being.
Evil is wrongdoing. It is not an accident. It is intentional. It is the denial and suppression of truth and the temporary fascination with power. It is the willfull misuse of free will.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Nuggin, posted 05-02-2007 11:15 AM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by ringo, posted 05-03-2007 12:44 AM Rob has replied
 Message 55 by Nuggin, posted 05-03-2007 4:16 AM Rob has replied
 Message 62 by Archer Opteryx, posted 05-03-2007 6:10 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 32 of 105 (398877)
05-03-2007 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Dr Adequate
05-02-2007 2:59 PM


Re: What is evil?
God is only asking for a voluntary confession. No coersion necessary.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-02-2007 2:59 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 35 of 105 (398884)
05-03-2007 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Phat
05-02-2007 10:52 AM


Re: Worldviews and Creation/Evolution
Phat:
But are you sure that the truth is nonsense to Percy? I do not see him as an unwitting tool of Satan...after all, were it not for him, you and I would not be able to have a soapbox for Gods cause!
I have two words for you Phat:
1. Boot
2. Licker
Phat:
If humans were evil by nature, evil would be natural and God would be a human construct or a reality that everyone will face one way or another.
If human beings are not evil by nature, then we do not need a savior.
Phat, have you ever actually read a Bible?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 05-02-2007 10:52 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Archer Opteryx, posted 05-03-2007 1:08 AM Rob has replied
 Message 40 by anglagard, posted 05-03-2007 1:19 AM Rob has replied
 Message 42 by iceage, posted 05-03-2007 1:21 AM Rob has not replied
 Message 44 by anglagard, posted 05-03-2007 1:28 AM Rob has replied
 Message 67 by Larni, posted 05-03-2007 11:56 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 36 of 105 (398887)
05-03-2007 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by ringo
05-03-2007 12:44 AM


Re: What is evil?
Ringo:
If motivations can not be observed objectively, how can they "expose objective evil"?
I think you meant, 'If motivations cannot be observed directly.'
Evil is not hard to prove. Neither is motive.
What are the motives of the perpetrator in the following cenario?
Ravi Zacharius tells the story of being on an airplane after leaving a major asian city that he did not name. He happened to be sitting next to a Dutch woman, and after some pleasantries discovered that she was also a Christian.
He asked her what she had been doing in that country and she told him she was involved in rescuing children from some horrible conditions that absoultely debased human dignity.
She said that on this trip she saw the worst thing she had ever seen. She said 'there is a place in the city we just left called Snake Alley. It is a place where the men come after work and are given a concoction of liquor and snakes blood. It ravages the mind. Then thay are treated to their hearts desire even though they make their request before consuming the beverage'.
She said, 'Mr Zacharius, I rescued an 18 month old baby girl from the hands of a man who was sexually devestating her.'
It would be evil and ill-motivated for you to deny it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by ringo, posted 05-03-2007 12:44 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by ringo, posted 05-03-2007 1:08 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 39 of 105 (398894)
05-03-2007 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Archer Opteryx
05-02-2007 8:19 PM


Re: What is evil?
Archer:
'Evil' is not a word I throw around, but here's my working definition:
Evil is that which threatens what I cherish.
Absolute evil is that which threatens what I cherish absolutely.
Those are the words of a king and sovereign lord who reigns over his own (my will be done).
Allow me to say, 'Very interesting'. You've confirmed far more than you could possibly imagine.
So you do believe evil exists, and is in opposition to you?
Archer:
The worst mistake you can make in any conflict is to underestimate your enemy. When you think of a human adversary as subhuman, you have underestimated your enemy.
Don't forget that the opposite is also true. If you forget that your enemy is God.
Listen to this:
"Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Will he not first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.
(Jesus Christ / Luke 14:31-33)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Archer Opteryx, posted 05-02-2007 8:19 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 41 of 105 (398898)
05-03-2007 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Archer Opteryx
05-03-2007 1:08 AM


Re: love, evil and perceived threats
Archer:
Rob is angry because he perceives a threat to something he cherishes.
You're projecting.
All I see is a guy who thinks Percy is God. EVC is not primarily for me a place to evangelize any longer. I do that face to face every day. This is a place for me to study my opponents and learn their arguments.
Their is no-one here that threatens me or my god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Archer Opteryx, posted 05-03-2007 1:08 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Archer Opteryx, posted 05-03-2007 3:43 AM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 43 of 105 (398903)
05-03-2007 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by anglagard
05-03-2007 1:19 AM


Re: Worldviews and Creation/Evolution
Angalard:
That is an awfully self-righteous thing for someone to say.
Not if it's true. it's just a fact.
Jesus said the same thing in 1st Century terms. And the Pharisees were as offended as all of you:
Matthew 23:1-12
1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3 So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. 5 "Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.'

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by iceage, posted 05-03-2007 1:31 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 46 of 105 (398911)
05-03-2007 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by anglagard
05-03-2007 1:28 AM


Re: Worldviews and Creation/Evolution
Anglagard:
I did not read that self-hate and the resultant hatred of others was a requirement.
Which god do you worship anyway, Rob? I am unfamiliar with the hate others as you would hate yourself type god except as a counterexample.
Truth is not hatred Anglagard. In fact it is liberation into reality. But it does require some changes that first involve facing rreality to begin with.
But as to your question, you missed much in the Bible. And I am only digging up one example:
Romans 7:14-25
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by anglagard, posted 05-03-2007 1:28 AM anglagard has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 47 of 105 (398912)
05-03-2007 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by iceage
05-03-2007 1:31 AM


Re: Worldviews and Creation/Evolution
Iceage:
Your bolded section in the quote doesn't even relate to your stupid charge against Phat - it is just stupid and inane.
I keep forgetting that you're blind. And your melting...
Do you believe in evil or not, that is the topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by iceage, posted 05-03-2007 1:31 AM iceage has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 48 of 105 (398915)
05-03-2007 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by ringo
05-03-2007 1:08 AM


Re: What is evil?
Ringo:
In fact, since we can not fathom any "reasonable" motivation for his actions, our observations become less objective.
Oh man! Your so close! You almost got it!
Actually the less reasonable his actions, the more subjective his motivations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by ringo, posted 05-03-2007 1:08 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by ringo, posted 05-03-2007 1:46 AM Rob has not replied
 Message 57 by Nuggin, posted 05-03-2007 4:32 AM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 49 of 105 (398920)
05-03-2007 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by iceage
05-03-2007 1:31 AM


Re: Worldviews and Creation/Evolution
Iceage:
Good lord, Rob when you are going to quit comparing yourself to Jesus.
Never! The day I do, is the day I forget who I am in relation to Him.
And it was Jesus who made the comparison. Verse 24 and 25. The only thing more hated than a leader, is his follower.
Matthew 10:16-42
16 I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 "Be on your guard against men; they will hand you over to the local councils and flog you in their synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. 21 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes. 24 "A student is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25 It is enough for the student to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebub, how much more the members of his household! 26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by iceage, posted 05-03-2007 1:31 AM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by iceage, posted 05-03-2007 1:56 AM Rob has replied
 Message 59 by Archer Opteryx, posted 05-03-2007 4:58 AM Rob has not replied

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