Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 916,387 Year: 3,644/9,624 Month: 515/974 Week: 128/276 Day: 2/23 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Is Anything Evil? Does Evil Exist?
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5869 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 46 of 105 (398911)
05-03-2007 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by anglagard
05-03-2007 1:28 AM


Re: Worldviews and Creation/Evolution
Anglagard:
I did not read that self-hate and the resultant hatred of others was a requirement.
Which god do you worship anyway, Rob? I am unfamiliar with the hate others as you would hate yourself type god except as a counterexample.
Truth is not hatred Anglagard. In fact it is liberation into reality. But it does require some changes that first involve facing rreality to begin with.
But as to your question, you missed much in the Bible. And I am only digging up one example:
Romans 7:14-25
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by anglagard, posted 05-03-2007 1:28 AM anglagard has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5869 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 47 of 105 (398912)
05-03-2007 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by iceage
05-03-2007 1:31 AM


Re: Worldviews and Creation/Evolution
Iceage:
Your bolded section in the quote doesn't even relate to your stupid charge against Phat - it is just stupid and inane.
I keep forgetting that you're blind. And your melting...
Do you believe in evil or not, that is the topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by iceage, posted 05-03-2007 1:31 AM iceage has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5869 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 48 of 105 (398915)
05-03-2007 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by ringo
05-03-2007 1:08 AM


Re: What is evil?
Ringo:
In fact, since we can not fathom any "reasonable" motivation for his actions, our observations become less objective.
Oh man! Your so close! You almost got it!
Actually the less reasonable his actions, the more subjective his motivations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by ringo, posted 05-03-2007 1:08 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by ringo, posted 05-03-2007 1:46 AM Rob has not replied
 Message 57 by Nuggin, posted 05-03-2007 4:32 AM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5869 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 49 of 105 (398920)
05-03-2007 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by iceage
05-03-2007 1:31 AM


Re: Worldviews and Creation/Evolution
Iceage:
Good lord, Rob when you are going to quit comparing yourself to Jesus.
Never! The day I do, is the day I forget who I am in relation to Him.
And it was Jesus who made the comparison. Verse 24 and 25. The only thing more hated than a leader, is his follower.
Matthew 10:16-42
16 I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 "Be on your guard against men; they will hand you over to the local councils and flog you in their synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. 21 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes. 24 "A student is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25 It is enough for the student to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebub, how much more the members of his household! 26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by iceage, posted 05-03-2007 1:31 AM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by iceage, posted 05-03-2007 1:56 AM Rob has replied
 Message 59 by Archer Opteryx, posted 05-03-2007 4:58 AM Rob has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 432 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 50 of 105 (398921)
05-03-2007 1:46 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Rob
05-03-2007 1:38 AM


Re: What is evil?
Rob writes:
Actually the less reasonable his actions, the more subjective his motivations.
That's exactly what I said. You're the one who's claiming we can have objective knowledge of his motivations.
The more subjective the motivations for "evil", the more subjective the "evil" itself.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Rob, posted 05-03-2007 1:38 AM Rob has not replied

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5935 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 51 of 105 (398924)
05-03-2007 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Rob
05-03-2007 1:43 AM


Re: Worldviews and Creation/Evolution
Rob writes:
Never! The day I do, is the day I forget who I am in relation to Him.
Oh.
Rob writes:
Jesus said the same thing
You continuously justify your boorish, inane and stupid comments by comparing them to some out of context Jesus quote.
If you get frustrated you will like a 3 year old starting spouting stupid things like "oh your blind and deaf and are melting", or worse let them you know you own a .357.
Grow up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Rob, posted 05-03-2007 1:43 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Rob, posted 05-03-2007 2:03 AM iceage has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5869 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 52 of 105 (398925)
05-03-2007 2:03 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by iceage
05-03-2007 1:56 AM


Re: Worldviews and Creation/Evolution
If you cannot perceive the connections between my comments and those of Jesus, then you are blind. Said blindness can be caused by many things. I am sure there's a logical explanation.
I'm just telling the truth, you're the one who is upset. Look at my avatar. That's me!
Calm down, you look nervous... (or is that verminous?)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by iceage, posted 05-03-2007 1:56 AM iceage has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Nuggin, posted 05-03-2007 4:37 AM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5869 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 53 of 105 (398929)
05-03-2007 2:17 AM


Still falling short
For anyone reading this thread seeking actual understanding, I offer my sincere apologies. One again, I have fallen short in ignoring that which is ignorant, and have become an ignoramus myself.
Just can't let go sometimes.
Enough with the bickering all...
There were some serious arguments being leveled. Perhaps we can focus on those.

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Phat, posted 05-03-2007 5:03 AM Rob has replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3618 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 54 of 105 (398935)
05-03-2007 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Rob
05-03-2007 1:19 AM


Re: love, evil and perceived threats
Rob:
You're projecting.
All I see is a guy who thinks Percy is God. EVC is not primarily for me a place to evangelize any longer. I do that face to face every day. This is a place for me to study my opponents and learn their arguments.
Their is no-one here that threatens me or my god.
Once again, Rob, you neglect to pay attention.
I never said Phat's comment threatened you or any deity personally. I suggested that something in it threatened your belief.
In response you have offered a banal retort ('I'm rubber, you're glue') followed by a claim to objectivity and confidence that your behaviour has already shown to consist of thin stuff.
In the process, you once again miss the point.
I wouldn't mind the drama so much if it were good drama...
____
Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : brev.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : punct.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Rob, posted 05-03-2007 1:19 AM Rob has not replied

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 55 of 105 (398937)
05-03-2007 4:16 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Rob
05-03-2007 12:25 AM


Re: What is evil?
Evil is the same as gravity? That's a load of crap.
Masses attract one another - why? we don't know. But, we can measure it and it remains constant.
The intent of the mass is not a factor in determining if gravity has happened or not.
The intent of action is necessary to determine evil. There can be no objectively evil action, only subjectively evil actions.
There is no subjective gravity.
Likewise, there is no subjective matter.
So in ytour opinion, and depending upon one's worldview, it could be reasonable for some people to ravage an 18 month old baby girl after consuming a mind altering beverage all the while planning and deciding to do so while sober?
Where did I say "reasonable" in regards to this?
Do I believe that they may believe that what they are doing is not evil? Sure. Perhaps it's a lack of imagination on my part but I can't fathom the thought process which may bring them to this conclusion. I do not, however, blame them for my lack of imagination.
The secondary question then becomes, do I blame them for their actions? Absolutely.
We can, and should, punish actions which we as a society have deemed unacceptable no matter what the motivation behind the action.
If you are speeding for fun, you get a ticket. If you are speeding to go stop a murder from happening, you should still get a ticket. (hopefully after the cop helps you stop the murder).
It is the intentional laying down of one's reason and thinking process (conscious) so as to indulge and plunder physical pleasure at the expense of another persons (or society's) well being.
Okay, so let's go with this as your working definition of "evil". If this is the case, evil is in the actions but the person themself is not evil. This requires motive.
The person must be motivated to do the action in their own self interest and the action must be at the expense of others.
So, I buy candy at the store - not evil.
I steal candy from the store - evil.
But if steal candy from the store but don't enjoy doing so - not evil.
We're back to the person's motivation behind their actions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Rob, posted 05-03-2007 12:25 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Rob, posted 05-03-2007 1:15 PM Nuggin has replied

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 56 of 105 (398941)
05-03-2007 4:21 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Archer Opteryx
05-03-2007 12:45 AM


Re: What is evil?
Subjective as the definition is, I think you will find that, in practice, my criteria are universally valid.
Every person recognizes as 'evil' that which threatens what he or she most cherishes.
Every person recognizes as 'absolute evil' that which threatens what the individual cherishes absolutely.
I'm not sure if you meant these as examples of the reasoning, or if this are concepts you are backing as valid but they don't make sense to me.
I cherish my dog the most. The things which threaten my dog are: Heartworm, busy streets, age, etc.
I don't consider any of these things evil even in the slightest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Archer Opteryx, posted 05-03-2007 12:45 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 57 of 105 (398942)
05-03-2007 4:32 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Rob
05-03-2007 1:38 AM


Re: What is evil?
Actually the less reasonable his actions, the more subjective his motivations.
You are making a mistake of arrogance here. You assume that because you can not figure out the reasoning behind his actions that his actions in and of themselves lack reasoning. This is false.
For all we know his actions are the direct, inescapable, conclusion of very clear reasoning. We just don't know the variables.
By the way, you've brought up this story a couple of times now and I'd like to point out this:
You are recounting a tale told by a person who's objective is convince you that there is evil in the world. I suspect that he gets paid handsomely to do this. But he isn't even claiming that this story is true. He's telling you a story that he himself heard from a stranger.
This all strikes me as a bit of a game of telephone.
Surely there are better documented examples of evil acts which can be verified at least by the people who are presenting them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Rob, posted 05-03-2007 1:38 AM Rob has not replied

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 58 of 105 (398945)
05-03-2007 4:37 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Rob
05-03-2007 2:03 AM


Re: Worldviews and Creation/Evolution
If you cannot perceive the connections between my comments and those of Jesus, then you are blind.
That's one theory. Another is that you are doing a poor job making those connections.
It's a very poor teacher who blames his student for not learning.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Rob, posted 05-03-2007 2:03 AM Rob has not replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3618 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 59 of 105 (398947)
05-03-2007 4:58 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Rob
05-03-2007 1:43 AM


Iceage: Good lord, Rob when you are going to quit comparing yourself to Jesus?
Rob: Never! The day I do, is the day I forget who I am in relation to Him.
So it is your personal belief that is threatened, as I suggested.
Interesting.
And it was Jesus who made the comparison.[. . .] "If the head of the house has been called Beelzebub, how much more the members of his household!"
But earlier you told us yourself that you were evil.
Now you tell us that saying such a thing is unjust, because you are really like Christ.
So which is it?
While you're flipping that coin for the umpteenth time, let me suggest an alternative you could try in the future. Instead of portraying yourself as Beelzebub or Jesus or the next worst/best thing in either case, how would it be to think of yourself as just a person?
Less dramatic, I know. But more realistic. And reality is where you have to live most of your life.
Your religion allows this, by the way. The extant evidence suggests Jesus of Nazareth rather liked real people.
Being a person also helps you avoid shipwrecks. Your boat has been careening back and forth from Rob the Pond Scum to Rob the Christlike to Rob the Pond Scum to Rob the Christlike ever since you launched it. Stabilise that thing and it will make better headway.
_____
Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : brev.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Rob, posted 05-03-2007 1:43 AM Rob has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18298
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 60 of 105 (398950)
05-03-2007 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Rob
05-03-2007 2:17 AM


Re: Still falling short
Gregory Koukl is a Christian Apologist who has a unique perspective on Evil that you may find interesting, Rob. It is relevant to this topic because it comes from the worldview of a creationist.
The full article can be found here.
In a nutshell, what the crux of his argument is is this:
STR writes:
The first step in answering the problem of evil is this: We've got to get clear on what this thing "evil" actually is. It does seem to follow that if God created all things, and evil is a thing, then God created evil. This is a valid syllogism. If the premises are true, then the conclusion would be true as well.
The problem with that line of reasoning is that the second premise is not true. Evil is not a thing. The person who probably explained it best was St. Augustine, and then Thomas Aquinas picked up on his solution. Others since them have argued that evil has no ontological status in itself.
Let me give you an illustration to make this more clear. We talk about things being cold or warm. But coldness is not a thing that exists in itself; it has no ontological status. Coldness is the absence of heat. When we remove heat energy from a system, we say it gets colder.
"Cold" isn't a thing. It's a way of describing the reduction of molecular activity resulting in the sensation of heat. So the more heat we pull out of a system, the colder it gets. Cold itself isn't being "created." Cold is a description of a circumstance in which heat is missing. Heat is energy which can be measured. When you remove heat, the temperature goes down. We call that condition "cold," but there is no cold "stuff" that causes that condition.
Same thing with a shadow. Shadows don't exist as things in themselves; they're just the absence of light.
Evil is like that. Evil isn't like some black, gooey stuff floating around the universe that gloms onto people and causes them to do awful things. Evil is the absence of good, a privation of good, not a thing in itself.
So donut holes don't exist; they're just the absence of donut. Shadows don't exist; they're just the absence of light. And evil doesn't exist; it's just the absence of good.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Rob, posted 05-03-2007 2:17 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Rob, posted 05-03-2007 9:15 AM Phat has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024