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Author Topic:   Is Anything Evil? Does Evil Exist?
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 61 of 105 (398953)
05-03-2007 5:13 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Rob
05-02-2007 10:03 AM


Re: Rosencrantz and Guildenstern
Rob: Define matter for me Archer...
The quote was 'More matter, with less art.'
Today we would say 'Address the point and cut the drama.'
___
Edited by Archer Opterix, : title.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Rob, posted 05-02-2007 10:03 AM Rob has not replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 62 of 105 (398960)
05-03-2007 6:10 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Rob
05-03-2007 12:25 AM


the 'empirically verifiable' subjectively unverifiable
"The most emperically verifiable reality is the depravity of man. Yet, at the same time, it is the most intellectually resisted fact!"
(Malcomb Muggeridge)
One could as easily say:
"The most empirically verifiable reality is the goodness of man. Yet, at the same time, it is the most intellectually resisted fact!"
(Hogwarts Mugglefidge)
The second has the virtue of getting the spelling of 'empirically' right. Other than that, the statements are of equal value.
Both are subjective impressions. The evidence for each is anecdotal. Neither can be demonstrated empirically.
_____
Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Rob, posted 05-03-2007 12:25 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Rob, posted 05-03-2007 9:20 AM Archer Opteryx has replied
 Message 65 by Rob, posted 05-03-2007 9:25 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 63 of 105 (398973)
05-03-2007 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Phat
05-03-2007 5:03 AM


Re: Still falling short
I Love you Phat. I still get the STR web newsletter by my old address. And that link is more than helpful. Thank you. Now, I'm going to go have one of those days where I don't say anything. Psalm 141.
STR writes:
The first step in answering the problem of evil is this: We've got to get clear on what this thing "evil" actually is. It does seem to follow that if God created all things, and evil is a thing, then God created evil. This is a valid syllogism. If the premises are true, then the conclusion would be true as well.
The problem with that line of reasoning is that the second premise is not true. Evil is not a thing. The person who probably explained it best was St. Augustine, and then Thomas Aquinas picked up on his solution. Others since them have argued that evil has no ontological status in itself.
Let me give you an illustration to make this more clear. We talk about things being cold or warm. But coldness is not a thing that exists in itself; it has no ontological status. Coldness is the absence of heat. When we remove heat energy from a system, we say it gets colder.
"Cold" isn't a thing. It's a way of describing the reduction of molecular activity resulting in the sensation of heat. So the more heat we pull out of a system, the colder it gets. Cold itself isn't being "created." Cold is a description of a circumstance in which heat is missing. Heat is energy which can be measured. When you remove heat, the temperature goes down. We call that condition "cold," but there is no cold "stuff" that causes that condition.
Same thing with a shadow. Shadows don't exist as things in themselves; they're just the absence of light.
Evil is like that. Evil isn't like some black, gooey stuff floating around the universe that gloms onto people and causes them to do awful things. Evil is the absence of good, a privation of good, not a thing in itself.
So donut holes don't exist; they're just the absence of donut. Shadows don't exist; they're just the absence of light. And evil doesn't exist; it's just the absence of good.

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Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 64 of 105 (398974)
05-03-2007 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Archer Opteryx
05-03-2007 6:10 AM


Re: the 'empirically verifiable' subjectively unverifiable
Archer:
The evidence for each is anecdotal. Neither can be demonstrated empirically
Name something that can; matter, light, gravity? Don't forget that it is all relative and circumstancial.
And Phat offered a tremendous solution that I have also listed in the previous post.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Archer Opteryx, posted 05-03-2007 6:10 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Archer Opteryx, posted 05-03-2007 1:01 PM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 65 of 105 (398978)
05-03-2007 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Archer Opteryx
05-03-2007 6:10 AM


Re: the 'empirically verifiable' subjectively unverifiable
Archer:
The second has the virtue of getting the spelling of 'empirically' right. Other than that, the statements are of equal value.
I don't deny the goodness of man. It is you who deny his evil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Archer Opteryx, posted 05-03-2007 6:10 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Archer Opteryx, posted 05-03-2007 12:25 PM Rob has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 66 of 105 (398982)
05-03-2007 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Rob
05-03-2007 9:15 AM


Good Absence of Evil
STR writes:
So donut holes don't exist; they're just the absence of donut. Shadows don't exist; they're just the absence of light. And evil doesn't exist; it's just the absence of good.
Good is not a thing either. So good doesn't exist; it is just the absence of evil.
In literature and speech people personify objects, abstract concepts, and human emotions, opinions, and personalities to name just a few.
Evil is an descriptive word that has been personified.
What is deemed evil or good, as has been mentioned already, is relative to the person or group using the word.
So there are things that can be described as good or evil, but good and evil are not things that exist.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Rob, posted 05-03-2007 9:15 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Rob, posted 05-03-2007 1:55 PM purpledawn has replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 67 of 105 (398994)
05-03-2007 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Rob
05-03-2007 12:47 AM


Re: Worldviews and Creation/Evolution
Rob writes:
If human beings are not evil by nature, then we do not need a savior.
Now we have a way to indicate your saviour exists! This is a heavey wager to place on yourself.
Now if you assert that we do not need a saviour if evil is not real it is encumbent on you to provide evidence of your assertion that evil is real.
However it could seem as if you entered this debate with dishonesty in mind as you seem to be not prepaired to alter your assertion of your saviours' existance (making evil real).
If there is evidence of evil being an objective thing (remember this is a science fora) then bring it to us.
Or (by your assertion) you saviour is unreal.
As RAZD would say:
Enjoy.
Edited by Larni, : No reason given.
Edited by Larni, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Rob, posted 05-03-2007 12:47 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Rob, posted 05-03-2007 1:22 PM Larni has replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 68 of 105 (398998)
05-03-2007 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Rob
05-03-2007 9:25 AM


Re: the 'empirically verifiable' subjectively unverifiable
Rob:
I don't deny the goodness of man. It is you who deny his evil.
You've been putting that funny sugar on your Wheaties again.
Show me where I did.
___

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Rob, posted 05-03-2007 9:25 AM Rob has not replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 69 of 105 (399004)
05-03-2007 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Rob
05-03-2007 9:20 AM


Re: the 'empirically verifiable' subjectively unverifiable
Rob:
Name something that can [be demonstrated empirically]; matter, light, gravity? Don't forget that it is all relative and circumstancial.
You conceded in another thread that reality is absolute. Don't forget that.
Your desire to put your idea of morality on the same footing as ultimate reality (there) and the laws of physics (here) is plain. But the arguments in support of the idea have been feeble to non-existent. You make bare assertions. You do not demonstrate.
And Phat offered a tremendous solution that I have also listed in the previous post.
The doughnut-versus-doughnut hole thing.
I ate that one for breakfast a long time ago. But OK, I'll bite.
Other than the fact that Rob likes it, what reason do I have to find the idea 'tremendous'? Or even a 'solution'?
_______

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Rob, posted 05-03-2007 9:20 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Rob, posted 05-03-2007 1:35 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 70 of 105 (399005)
05-03-2007 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Nuggin
05-03-2007 4:16 AM


Re: What is evil?
Evil is the same as gravity? That's a load of crap.
Masses attract one another - why? we don't know. But, we can measure it and it remains constant.
The intent of the mass is not a factor in determining if gravity has happened or not.
The intent of action is necessary to determine evil. There can be no objectively evil action, only subjectively evil actions.
There is no subjective gravity.
Likewise, there is no subjective matter.
All I was saying is that evil can be observed by it's manifestation in the same manner as gravity. I was not saying that 'evil' is altogether analogous to gravity. But there do share that one common featuure.
You cannot observe evil (since it is darkness) but you can see it's effects.
Rob:So in your opinion, and depending upon one's worldview, it could be reasonable for some people to ravage an 18 month old baby girl after consuming a mind altering beverage all the while planning and deciding to do so while sober?
Nuggin:
Where did I say "reasonable" in regards to this?
Do I believe that they may believe that what they are doing is not evil? Sure. Perhaps it's a lack of imagination on my part but I can't fathom the thought process which may bring them to this conclusion. I do not, however, blame them for my lack of imagination.
Evil is the lack of reason. The fact you cannot fathom it is precisely the point. It is the absense of good sound thinking. But to say that the person might not have known better himself is absurd. It was a premeditated action.
And in that sense, yes, you are trying to rationalize it away and leaving open the 'possibility' that it is reasonable. It is not.
That is why Malcomb Muggeridge, in decrying the state of 20th century man, made this comment:
“It is difficult to resist the conclusion that twentieth-century man has decided to abolish himself. Tired of the struggle to be himself, he has created boredom out of his own affluence, impotence out of his own erotomania, and vulnerability out of his own strength. He himself blows the trumpet that brings the walls of his own cities crashing down until at last, having educated himself into imbecility, having drugged and polluted himself into stupefaction, he keels over a weary, battered old brontosaurus and becomes extinct.”
Is there nothing you and the others here, will not attempt to justify?
What that man did was evil. I need not your agreement on the issue. I am stating a fact. I bear no burden for your refusal to accept it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Nuggin, posted 05-03-2007 4:16 AM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by ringo, posted 05-03-2007 1:26 PM Rob has replied
 Message 74 by Tusko, posted 05-03-2007 1:39 PM Rob has replied
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 71 of 105 (399008)
05-03-2007 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Larni
05-03-2007 11:56 AM


Re: Worldviews and Creation/Evolution
Larni:
Now if you assert that we do not need a saviour if evil is not real it is encumbent on you to provide evidence of your assertion that evil is real.
Listen, the fact that all of us feel the need to fix anything, is proof that something is wrong.
I don't care if it is the psychologist waxing eloquent about how to avoid a VA Tech from happening in the future, or a politician lobbying for a more diverse culture. The fact is, we keep trying to fix something.
What is it?
All the rest of these questions are nothing but posturing and obfuscation.
We need a savior. And it is not the government (other men).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Larni, posted 05-03-2007 11:56 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 72 of 105 (399009)
05-03-2007 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Rob
05-03-2007 1:15 PM


Re: What is evil?
Rob writes:
But to say that the person might not have known better himself is absurd. It was a premeditated action.
How can you know it was "premeditated" if you can't fathom the motivation? And how does "premeditated" reconcile with lack of reason?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Rob, posted 05-03-2007 1:47 PM ringo has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 73 of 105 (399013)
05-03-2007 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Archer Opteryx
05-03-2007 1:01 PM


Re: the 'empirically verifiable' subjectively unverifiable
Archer:
You conceded in another thread that reality is absolute. Don't forget that.
Yes... but reality is good not evil. And goodness is not found under a microscope. It is found in the moral law. And it was demonstrated and made a physical reality by the appearence of Christ.
Because He came, it is no longer only a wistful and mystical ideal as Percy claimed. God proved who He was both logically and physically. Do you believe that?
That is what Paul was saying here:
2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
And you have to understand who He was talking to. He was speaking to the Greeks in Corinth. And they undertood that the Hebrews used light as a symbol for reality and God. And the Romans who sought glory 'glory' (eg the 'glory' of the Roman empire) for it's reflection of the supremacy of reality. And the Greeks themselves who worshipped 'knowledge' as essential (episteme) to wisdom. Paul was trying to tell them that Jesus embodied all of these features and revealed them to us by not only His words but His actions.
Sinless!
In fact, the only crime they could get Him on was for claiming to be God.
They crucified Him for telling the truth. And that is what is happening here at EVC. It is not I who am being crucified, but truth. So you can dispense with the persecution complex stuff.
And that is evil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Archer Opteryx, posted 05-03-2007 1:01 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tusko
Member (Idle past 101 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 74 of 105 (399014)
05-03-2007 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Rob
05-03-2007 1:15 PM


Re: What is evil?
you writes:
You cannot observe evil (since it is darkness) but you can see it's effects.
Following up on purpledawn's earlier point, isn't it also true that you can't observe good either?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Rob, posted 05-03-2007 1:15 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Rob, posted 05-03-2007 1:50 PM Tusko has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 75 of 105 (399017)
05-03-2007 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by ringo
05-03-2007 1:26 PM


Re: What is evil?
Ringo:
How can you know it was "premeditated" if you can't fathom the motivation? And how does "premeditated" reconcile with lack of reason?
There was a boy being rebuked by his father. he was sent into a closet and told to stay there until he changed his mind.
After some time, the father returned and asked if he had changed his mind. 'No' said the child.
'Then what have you been doing?' asked the father.
The child replied, 'I've been having a great time. I've been spitting on your clothes. I've been spitting on your shoes. I've been spitting on the carpet. I've been spitting on the wall. In fact, before you opened the door, I was just waiting for some more spit.'
There is nothing reasonable about that attitude (one you embody so well). What motivates it is nothing but an absolute insistence, to never give power to others. It is anger, rage, spite and rebellion. And is likely motivated by abuse of those in authority in the childs past.
It is the complete lack of trust. And if the child refuses the remedy (savior / reason) then he condemns himself to eternal irrationality.
So in slavific terms, it is not the childs behavior that condemns him (action). It is his refusal to accept rehabilitation. It does him no god to point the blame to his past. He is only making excuses.
He is being offered the healing he needs. And it is he who refuses to believe.
Evil!
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by ringo, posted 05-03-2007 1:26 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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