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Author Topic:   Marsupial evolution
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5935 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 17 of 91 (398651)
05-02-2007 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Hyroglyphx
05-01-2007 8:11 PM


Re: Don't judge a book by its cover
NJ writes:
And yet, there is no relation.
Huh? marsupials and placentals are certainly related.

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5935 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 24 of 91 (399067)
05-03-2007 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by MartinV
05-03-2007 2:08 PM


Re: placental vs. marsupial
- Snip unrelated personal attack -
Martinv writes:
Of course marsupial wolf is predator what is not the case of Zebra.
Predator or prey: Same underlying purpose camouflage.
How about Tigers strips and Zebra stripes or Leopard spots and Giraffes spots?
MartinV writes:
And marsupial wolfs hunted during night
And Zebras are hunted during night and low light conditions.
MartinV writes:
Problem is obviously much more complicated and going far beyond darwinian standard story explanations.
The underlying molecular machinery and physics behind the making of spots and strips is the same in marsupial and placental mammals so I do not find it too surprising to find pattern convergence.

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 Message 23 by MartinV, posted 05-03-2007 2:08 PM MartinV has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by MartinV, posted 05-04-2007 2:47 PM iceage has replied

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5935 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 29 of 91 (399270)
05-04-2007 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by MartinV
05-04-2007 2:47 PM


Re: placental vs. marsupial
Your original objection, if I understood it correctly, is how can a predator such as thylacinus have similar markings as a prey animal such as a banded duiker.
For convenience from your prior post...
Martinv writes:
Darwinists tend as usually to explain the striking similarity of stripe pattens between thylacinus and Zebra duiker "LIKELY due to similar types of habitat".
Of course marsupial wolf is predator what is not the case of Zebra.
I suggestion that prey and predator adopt similar markings as they both benefit from camouflage in the form of discontinuous color markings and that the underlying molecular mechanisms and physics is similar so it is not to hard understand the convergence. I provided a reference that talked about that further.
However, I forgot to mention that markings can serve as camo in addition to species recognition and sexual preferences. That need to be considered.
You ignore that issue and post a host of other objections such as, why are the stripes on the thylacinus on their back? If I spent time on that issue I would guess the question would just morph again.
Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5935 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 30 of 91 (399288)
05-04-2007 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by MartinV
05-04-2007 2:47 PM


Discontinuous Color Camouflage
Martinv writes:
Consider the fact there is probably no need for marsupial wolfs in a wolfpack/kennel (if such wolfpack/kennel ever existed) to be indescernible from each other.
Just curious why you are mentioning a kennel?
However I noticed this picture over on the Thylacine wiki
This image shows quite nicely the value of discontinuous color markings as camouflage, eventhough that was not the intent of the picture.
Also noticed mentioned on the Wiki that the color markings were more prominent on young Thylacines and faded as they aged. This suggest that maybe the color markings provided advantage when the Thylacines where young and vulnerable (ie, at a stage when they themselves were prey).
Again tho I would stress that the similar markings in animals between predator and prey or marsupial and placental mammals is due to the same underlying molecular mechanism.

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5935 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 33 of 91 (399324)
05-05-2007 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by arachnophilia
05-04-2007 11:48 PM


Re: placental vs. marsupial
Martin is referring to a very rare duiker of Sierra Leone
Which indeed has a similar pattern like Thylacine except it covers the majority of its body.
The page cannot be found
Oh and in addition I found another marsupial with similar markings accented towards the back.
How and why the observation that animals within the Class Mammalia have similar markings destroys Evolutionary theory is still a mystery.

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Replies to this message:
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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5935 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 40 of 91 (399407)
05-05-2007 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Hyroglyphx
05-05-2007 10:10 AM


Re: placental vs. marsupial
NJ writes:
The North American Wolf and dog share more similarities with the Thylacine than they do with Kangaroos.
No they do not! The method of giving birth is a *major* internal bodily function modification that also requires in additional commensurate behavioral modifications.
The Thylacine share attributes of other marsupials. For example at this reference:
http://www.naturalworlds.org/...turalhistory/behaviour_1.htm
There are two images of Thylacine in a kangaroo like pose, standing upright resting on its elongated back feet and even using the end of its very stiff tail for support. Further the Thylacine as known to a powerful jumper.
Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5935 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 41 of 91 (399412)
05-05-2007 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by MartinV
05-05-2007 4:34 AM


Molecular How
MartinV writes:
The problem of underlying molecular biology is unimportant even if some guys here consider it as crucial. It is as unimportant as it is what is behind scenes when you look in theatre to a play. It could not help you underestand better what you see on the stage if you know what is behind stage.
I do not believe that analogy has any justification or provides any insight. The back stage does not influence the substance of a play in a significant way. However, it may help to understand a play by understanding the person wrote the play - that would be more appropriate.
Back to the molecular how...
Recently I was reading an essay by Gould on Male Nipples when he commented that Francis Crick once responded to Gould's strong functionalist (everything must have a purpose) bias with the comment (paraphased from memory)
"Why do biologist always try to understand the value of an attribute *before* you understand the underlying molecular how"
Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

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