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Author Topic:   General Discussion Of Moderation Procedures 10.0
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3811
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 196 of 305 (398871)
05-03-2007 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by AdminPhat
05-02-2007 7:39 AM


Re: Respect goes both ways
i think brenna's 3-day suspension was unwarranted.

respect is indeed a two-way street, but tolerance for strong feeling and speech is part of that neighborhood, too.

if the f-word is banned under penalty of suspension, it should be an explicit rule.

if all speech that is not respectful becomes grounds for suspension, half the membership should be suspended at any one time.

frankly, i don't think you would have suspended a male member for the same speech--i think you reacted to YOUR level of disapproval, mediated by your outlook on gender, rather than the objective level of offense.

in general, over-sensitive admins are draining eVc of vitality.

imho, of course.


Real things always push back.
-William James

Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
---------------------------------------


This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by AdminPhat, posted 05-02-2007 7:39 AM AdminPhat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Thugpreacha, posted 05-03-2007 3:49 AM Omnivorous has responded

Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2304 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 197 of 305 (398916)
05-03-2007 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by AdminPhat
05-02-2007 7:39 AM


Re: Respect goes both ways
Hi, PB, I think what you mean is civility goes both ways. Respect is earned. When bombastic posters trot out confrontational statements, one has the choice of patiently explaining why and where they are wrong, or replying in kind. Unfortunately, patience is in short supply on fast-moving topics. You slip the knife in, or get condemned to disappearing in the wash as arguments wander all over the place. A salute to admins who try to keep law and order. :D

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by AdminPhat, posted 05-02-2007 7:39 AM AdminPhat has not yet responded

Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3908
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 198 of 305 (398932)
05-03-2007 2:48 AM


Adminnemooseus perspective on the Crashfrog and Brennakimi suspensions
This is the message that (more or less) started the whole mess. It was posted by Brennakimi at (as my system sees the times) 8:33 on 4-30-07. I bannered it as being off-topic at 8:47 pm. It was the most recent message at that time and was a reply to a message 54 messages back.

In it's entirety:

(The human clavicle makes it fairly hard to deliver a fatal blow with a chopping, overhand attack with something as light as a machete.)

tell that to the million dead in rwanda.

Then, at 9:07 pm (20 minutes after I had bannered the message), Crashfrog made an (IMO) equally off-topic reply. I then gave CF a 2 hour suspension. Now, there is a real possibility that CF had a pre-banner version displayed, but even then one needs to have some on/off-topic sense.

Then, at 9:23, Brennakimi made her reply (subtitled "off-topic" no less) to CF's message. Also see the nature of BK's messages just up-thread. I then also gave BK a two hour suspension. At the time, I thought the topic would hit 300 messages an be closed before the 2 hours elapsed. Such was not the case.

The dual suspension announcement is here. AdminPhat's follow up suspension announcement is the following message.

My message, in its entirety:

Adminnemooseus writes:

See www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=14&t=1870&m=277#275 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=14&t=1870&m=277#275">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=14&t=1870&m=277#275, and chain of responses.

Crashfrog responded to a message I had bannered "Off-Topic Do not respond". Brennakimi responded to Crashfrogs response. Brennakimi also did numerous trite messages in the same topic.

Crashfrogs "hovertext" suspension message:

Suspension expires: 04-30-2007 11:26 PM (1h 54m from now)
Reason: See www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=14&t=1870&m=277#277 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=14&t=1870&m=277#277">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=14&t=1870&m=277#277

2 hour suspension - Replying to an off-topic message despite very prominent warning not to do such - Adminnemooseus

Brennakimis "hovertext" suspension message:

Suspension expires: 04-30-2007 11:30 PM (1h 57m from now)
Reason: 2 hour suspension - See www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=14&t=1870&m=281#281 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=14&t=1870&m=281#281">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=14&t=1870&m=281#281
Responding to message that got Crashfrog suspended for responding to off topic message. Also numerous other trite messages in same topic. - Adminnemooseus

The "General discussion..." topic link is below. Gripe away.

Adminnemooseus

The referred to link is in my "signature", not shown in the quote.

Please note the reasons I gave for the suspensions.

I now go to the 24 hour suspension I gave Brennakimi, 5 days earlier.
I'm not going to discuss that one further, except to point out my ps. side message, which was:

Adminnemooseus writes:

ps: I still think that using upper case letters in the proper place would help in the readability of messages.

Yes, that was all I said about the upper case thing. A side comment to a suspension for other things. Admin, however, went on to add by edit his views. They were:

Admin writes:

AbE: Hi Brenna, just another comment about messages in all lower case. You're obviously not the only one. Not only are there many in the on-line world who use only lower case, where I work the documentation person for one of our group's products does a great job, but she uses only lower case in all her email.

For short messages I have little problem with all lower case, and many of your messages are short. But if I see a message with more than one all lower case paragraph, or a long all lower case paragraph, unless the topic is fascinating or Forum Guidelines defying, my eyes rebel and I usually won't read it. Maybe it's a generational thing.

There was then other discussion of the upper case thing, up-thread in this topic. I, nor Admin, were part of that discussion.

Which gets us to the focus point of Brennakimi's current suspension by AdminPhat, messages 191 and 192, up-thread.

Brennakimi, in message 191 writes:

this is not the place to discuss this. if you want to open the tenth fucking thread on capitalization, fine.

Brennakimi, in message 192 writes:

not to mention. it was one fucking post.

and two. just because a post is short doesn't mean it is "trite" or worthless. if you don't like my posts, don't read them. no one else seems to be complaining that i'm causing trouble. take your issues with my typing style out of your administrative duties, please.

Monitoring messages for problems is part of being an admin. Actually, it's pretty much is the purpose of being an admin. And just because no one else is complaining, it doesn't mean the message(s) are not a problem. Lastly, as noted above, her typing style was not an issue in the suspension.

Now, IMO, these were childish tirades, amplified by the profanity use. Yes, perhaps a profane word is called for in certain situations. But one must beware of the power of those words. And I certainly wouldn't want such profanity use to become common place at . Are we to grant Brennakimi special "spoiled brat" privileges? I don't think so.

I think all the mentioned suspensions were justified. If, upon return, Brennakimi continues such behavior, the suspensions are going to get very long.

Adminnemooseus

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Forgot to do a subtitle.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Tweek formatting a bit.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Add another link.


Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by crashfrog, posted 05-03-2007 7:00 PM Adminnemooseus has not yet responded

Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13138
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 199 of 305 (398936)
05-03-2007 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by Omnivorous
05-03-2007 12:16 AM


Re: Respect goes both ways
Omni writes:

frankly, i don't think you would have suspended a male member for the same speech--i think you reacted to YOUR level of disapproval, mediated by your outlook on gender, rather than the objective level of offense.

Just out of curiosity, what makes you think that gender had anything to do with it? I have never had any issues with women at EvC before! You have been reading too many psychology journals!

To be honest, I may have been a bit biased at Brenn's sassy and brazen responses, but I have suspended both males and females for this trait.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Omnivorous, posted 05-03-2007 12:16 AM Omnivorous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Omnivorous, posted 05-03-2007 3:34 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3811
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 200 of 305 (399058)
05-03-2007 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Thugpreacha
05-03-2007 3:49 AM


Re: Respect goes both ways
quote:
Omni writes:

frankly, i don't think you would have suspended a male member for the same speech--i think you reacted to YOUR level of disapproval, mediated by your outlook on gender, rather than the objective level of offense.

Just out of curiosity, what makes you think that gender had anything to do with it? I have never had any issues with women at EvC before!

I suppose, in the spirit of science, I could collect and collate data on your gender-specific suspension thresholds, though that would be made difficult by the gender-blind nature of many member IDs. Rather, I relied on my social sense of your past behavior in similar circumstances: I stand by it.

I don't read psychology journals, but I do read people.

Why might I believe what I said on the matter? It's an after the fact example, but still...

Phat writes:

To be honest, I may have been a bit biased at Brenn's sassy and brazen responses...

I see. Called any ostensibly male posters "sassy and brazen" lately? :)


Real things always push back.
-William James

Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
---------------------------------------


This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Thugpreacha, posted 05-03-2007 3:49 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Jon, posted 05-03-2007 6:29 PM Omnivorous has responded
 Message 212 by Thugpreacha, posted 05-09-2007 7:04 PM Omnivorous has responded

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 201 of 305 (399091)
05-03-2007 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Omnivorous
05-03-2007 3:34 PM


Re: Respect goes both ways
Here, here, and here might offer some insight into Phat's [lack of] gender bias.

:)

Jon


This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Omnivorous, posted 05-03-2007 3:34 PM Omnivorous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Omnivorous, posted 05-03-2007 6:47 PM Jon has responded

Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3811
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 202 of 305 (399093)
05-03-2007 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by Jon
05-03-2007 6:29 PM


Re: Respect goes both ways
Anecdotal rubbish, Jon--and, even so, no language along the lines of "sassy and brazen."

Now, if he had threatened to spank you, I might consider that data.


Real things always push back.
-William James

Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
---------------------------------------


This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Jon, posted 05-03-2007 6:29 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Jon, posted 05-03-2007 11:37 PM Omnivorous has not yet responded

crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 203 of 305 (399094)
05-03-2007 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Adminnemooseus
05-03-2007 2:48 AM


Re: Adminnemooseus perspective on the Crashfrog and Brennakimi suspensions
Now, there is a real possibility that CF had a pre-banner version displayed, but even then one needs to have some on/off-topic sense.

Do you have any? I can't see that you do. Yes, I saw the banner. I replied anyway because you were clearly in error about the subject being off-topic.

As I said, topics need a little "breathing room" to discuss sub-arguments that arise. Discussion becomes impossible if we're held too rigidly to the narrow scope that a thread title encompasses.

Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Adminnemooseus, posted 05-03-2007 2:48 AM Adminnemooseus has not yet responded

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 204 of 305 (399117)
05-03-2007 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by Omnivorous
05-03-2007 6:47 PM


Re: Respect goes both ways
Now, if he had threatened to spank you, I might consider that data.

I think if Phat was going to spank me, it would be very much evidence in your favour ;)

Jon


This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Omnivorous, posted 05-03-2007 6:47 PM Omnivorous has not yet responded

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1908 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 205 of 305 (399498)
05-06-2007 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by AdminPhat
01-27-2007 1:57 AM


What is Futility?
I wanted to express my appreciation to PurpleDawn, wearing both her admin and non-admin hats, for everything she did to bring sanity to the recent What Is Evil? thread.

Closing that thread was the right call. Thanks to PD's previous restraint, the timing was exactly right.

I appreciate Phat's efforts to carry the ball a bit for someone who wasn't able, and the patience showed by all concerned.

Please accept my regrets, PD, about one thing. I know that, after all our efforts to attain focus, my last post momentarily helped the OP author avoid the topic and soak up some attention. At that point it was clear he intended to scuttle the discussion one way or the other. I took a last opportunity to make a suggestion.

Admirable leadership, PD. Many thanks.

_________

Edited by Archer Opterix, : brev.


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by AdminPhat, posted 01-27-2007 1:57 AM AdminPhat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by purpledawn, posted 05-06-2007 7:33 AM Archer Opteryx has not yet responded

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1768 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 206 of 305 (399507)
05-06-2007 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by Archer Opteryx
05-06-2007 1:25 AM


Re: What is Futility?
Thank you Archer,

I try to avoid keyboard psychology since we have limited view of individuals, but the author of that thread has issues to deal with.

I've noticed that some who are still struggling with their spiritual walk/journey feel the need to be persecuted, whether real or imagined, depending on how they started their journey.

I think you gave the author what he needed and did so as kindly as possible I might add. Maybe at some point the light will go on and he will move through his struggles.

I feel that several participants tried to get the author back on track, to no avail. I also appreciate that the participants in that thread remained pretty civil considering the responses, which prevented the need for official admin interventions.

Thanks again for the kudos and kudos to those who tried.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Archer Opteryx, posted 05-06-2007 1:25 AM Archer Opteryx has not yet responded

nator
Member (Idle past 480 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 207 of 305 (399622)
05-06-2007 11:55 PM


moose
Moose, I understand that you had problems with Brenna posting lots of contentless comments in various threads.

I do not think I am known as someone who posts lots of contentless messages.

I'll thank you to not treat me as if I was Brenna.

Of course, that message of Hoot-mon's I was responding to was oh-so cogent, well-thought out and crucial to the topic...


Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Adminnemooseus, posted 05-07-2007 12:27 AM nator has responded

Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3908
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 208 of 305 (399624)
05-07-2007 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by nator
05-06-2007 11:55 PM


Re: moose
Re: www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=6&t=684&m=170#170 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=6&t=684&m=170#170">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=6&t=684&m=170#170 and upthread (It would be nice if people posting to this topic would supply links back to the item in question).

I am finding the above cited to be highly reminiscent of the topic where I suspended both Crashfrog and Brennakimi (see upthread here and further upthread). Not only message triteness, but also a series of messsages of dubious connection to the topic theme.

Adminnemooseus


This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by nator, posted 05-06-2007 11:55 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by nator, posted 05-07-2007 8:34 AM Adminnemooseus has not yet responded
 Message 210 by crashfrog, posted 05-08-2007 7:23 PM Adminnemooseus has not yet responded

nator
Member (Idle past 480 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 209 of 305 (399649)
05-07-2007 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Adminnemooseus
05-07-2007 12:27 AM


Re: moose
quote:
I am finding the above cited to be highly reminiscent of the topic where I suspended both Crashfrog and Brennakimi

I already know that you were reminded of Brenna's many contentless posts by my single, uncharacteristic, one-off post. I said as much in my previous post here. I get it.

Did I give you any indication or reason to believe that I would continue this in that thread, especially given my history?

Perhaps I am being too sensitive, but I see absolutely no reason for me to take flak for a single brief comment just because you are irritated at the numerous contentless posts of other members.

I am not those other members.

AbE: Just saw your edit to the post in that thread. Thanks for that.

Edited by nator, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Adminnemooseus, posted 05-07-2007 12:27 AM Adminnemooseus has not yet responded

crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 210 of 305 (399898)
05-08-2007 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Adminnemooseus
05-07-2007 12:27 AM


Re: moose
Not only message triteness, but also a series of messsages of dubious connection to the topic theme.

Serious questions about your ability to detect legitimate connection to topic have already been raised in several posts. What is it going to take to get you to consider that perhaps your judgment on this point is not definitive? I, for one, would like to see you making judgments about whether a post was on-topic based on the OP of the thread, not the thread title as you currently appear to be doing. If you can't be bothered to read the thread and follow the flow of conversation - and recognize how sub-topics need to be explored to buttress main points - then it would be better for all if you didn't moderate in that thread except under the most dire circumstances. As it stands now you're interrupting far more legitimate debate than you're cultivating.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Adminnemooseus, posted 05-07-2007 12:27 AM Adminnemooseus has not yet responded

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