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Author Topic:   Is Anything Evil? Does Evil Exist?
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 91 of 105 (399062)
05-03-2007 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by purpledawn
05-03-2007 3:20 PM


Re: Good Absence of Evil
PD:
In literature and speech we tend to personify such words.

Whether my comment is good, bad, or neutral is in the eye of the beholder.

You are using literature and speech (words) to tell me this and state it as fact?

By your own philosophy you are not stating a fact, but an opinion. So there is no point in disagreeing with me.

That is what happens when we buy the lie of postmodernism, in exhange for your our moral liberty; we sacrifice our own words and the power of reason in the process.

"I am afraid we are not rid of God because we still have faith in grammar."
(Friedrich Nietzsche)

If words don't mean anything PD, then you have said nothing. And the same goes for you Friedrich...

Suicide of thought.

In the Beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. And the Word was God.
...And the Word became flesh.
...He came to that which was His own, but His own did not receive Him.
(Gospel of John chapter 1)

Edited by Rob, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 92 of 105 (399065)
05-03-2007 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Larni
05-03-2007 2:49 PM


Re: What is evil?
This is a science fora

I would have suggested social issues.

I took Phat's advice by mistake.


This message is a reply to:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1538 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 93 of 105 (399070)
05-03-2007 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Rob
05-03-2007 3:54 PM


Re: Good Absence of Evil
Please address my arguments concerning evil.

This is the science forum, please give some support if you disagree with what I've said concerning evil, which BTW is supported by your STR quote in Message 63.

Are you saying that evil does exist in its own right as an entity or an object? If yes, then please provide support. A picture would be even better and not pictures of people doing evil actions.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Tusko
Member
Posts: 605
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 94 of 105 (399075)
05-03-2007 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Rob
05-03-2007 1:50 PM


Re: What is evil?
That would have been true had Christ not come. So your argument might have been better BC. The Jews had more faith than we in that sense. We have no excuse.

There's certainly no arguing with that.

Edited by Tusko, : Context is EVERYTHING!


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ringo
Member
Posts: 16242
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 95 of 105 (399076)
05-03-2007 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Rob
05-03-2007 3:43 PM


Re: What is evil?
Rob writes:

There is no such thing as non-reason.

That's just an empty assertion that doesn't address the issue. I have said that there can be "bad" reasoning behind "bad" deeds. You have claimed that "bad" deeds are caused by deciding to reject reason.

How does "rejecting reason" work if there is no such thing as non-reason? Rejecting reason goes from reason to where?

Your motive is purely 'feeling' rather than thought.

I have asked you before and you still still still haven't answered: How can you know my motives? Or anybody else's motives?

Especially, how can you reason what my motives are if you claim my motives are not based on reason?


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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Rob, posted 05-03-2007 5:38 PM ringo has responded

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 96 of 105 (399081)
05-03-2007 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by purpledawn
05-03-2007 4:12 PM


Re: Good Absence of Evil
PD:
Please address my arguments concerning evil.
This is the science forum, please give some support if you disagree with what I've said concerning evil, which BTW is supported by your STR quote in Message 63.

Are you saying that evil does exist in its own right as an entity or an object? If yes, then please provide support. A picture would be even better and not pictures of people doing evil actions.

My apologies for any confusion or lack of clear Words. I have edited my previous post for you.

That is not what I am suggesting. I am suggesting that as evil is void of good, darkness is void of light, and nonsense is void of reason, and that in 'Light' of that, you have said nothing.

As for the science thread issue... this is misc stuf and I explained in message 92. I should have requested my gut.

Edited by Rob, : No reason given.


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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 97 of 105 (399082)
05-03-2007 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by ringo
05-03-2007 5:06 PM


Re: What is evil?
Ringo:
I have asked you before and you still still still haven't answered: How can you know my motives? Or anybody else's motives?

Especially, how can you reason what my motives are if you claim my motives are not based on reason?

I am not saying your motives are reasonable.

But the problem you are trying to expose is not a problem. It would be if I were trying to get into the soul of a cucumber. But as C.S. Lewis said, 'We don't have to gues what men think, We are men.'

That is why we have jury's made up of other people. What other choice would we have?

But if what you say is true, we might as well fire every prosecuting attorney. There would be no ability to prove motives at all.

But that is not true... it is just a convict sitting in his cell insisting that he is innocent. But if you are innocent, you would not be denying what I am saying.


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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16242
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 98 of 105 (399087)
05-03-2007 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Rob
05-03-2007 5:38 PM


Re: What is evil?
Rob writes:

There would be no ability to prove motives at all.

Of course, there is no ability to "prove" motives at all.

Judges and juries can only guess at motives. A prosecutor will suggest a plausible motive, if he wants to convince the jury that the crime was premeditated. But there would be no need for juries if motives could be "proven".

What juries do is try to understand the mental processes of the accused in terms of their own mental processes. That is reasoning, by necessity.

As I have said, and you still still still still have not addressed: The "evildoer's" actions are reasoned, or there would be no basis for the jury to guess what his motivations were. Your claim of "lack of reason" just doesn't work.


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Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1538 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 99 of 105 (399097)
05-03-2007 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Rob
05-03-2007 5:31 PM


Re: Good Absence of Evil
quote:
That is not what I am suggesting. I am suggesting that as evil is void of good, darkness is void of light, and nonsense is void of reason, and that in 'Light' of that, you have said nothing.
Actually nonsense would be void of sense.

Nonsense definition: That which makes or has no sense, especially language or behvaior that is meaningless; absurdity. Language or conduct that is annoying evasive, or otherwise lacking in good sense.

So how can you console me with your nonsense? Nothing is left of your answers but falsehood! (Job 21:34)

The Bible is replete with personifications.

How can you know when a poet has used personification? It is not complicated: whenever a poet attributes human qualities to some- thing inanimate, often an abstraction, he or she has used personification.

Numbers 16:32 (and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, and their...)

Wisdom in Proverbs 8.

The Adversary in Job

We aren't talking about voids, we are talking about the existence of evil.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 573 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 100 of 105 (399108)
05-03-2007 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Rob
05-03-2007 2:31 PM


Re: What is evil?
Ringo:
How can you determine somebody else's motivations if you don't understand the reasoning behind them?

Rob:

The fact that there is no reason is itself the proof of ill motive.

Rob, do you see how you are dodging the question. Ringo asked how you can detemine the motives if you DON'T UNDERSTAND the reasoning.

You're reply is that there is NO REASONING.

That's just covering your eyes. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Good motives have good reasoning or 'sound' reasoning.

'Sound' reasoning implies only that given a set of facts, one can draw a logical conclusion.

But you are mistaking all "facts" to be "good" or that the logical conclusion of those facts is "good". This is a mistake.

The 9/11 hijackers had a number of facts. They drew reasonable conclusions based on those facts. They acted on those conclusions.

Therefore, by your argument, the 9/11 hijackers are "good".


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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 573 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 101 of 105 (399109)
05-03-2007 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Rob
05-03-2007 5:38 PM


Re: What is evil?
But if what you say is true, we might as well fire every prosecuting attorney. There would be no ability to prove motives at all.

Proving motive is really the least important part of a criminal case. In fact, the "motive" really shouldn't play a part in the case at all.

If I can prove that you were present, that you had a gun and that you killed the person, I don't need to know why in order to send you to jail.

However, if I can prove that you wanted someone dead and they ended up dead, but I can no prove that you committed the crime, a jury should not find you guilty.

(yes, I know, juries make mistakes)


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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1678 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 102 of 105 (399125)
05-04-2007 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Rob
05-03-2007 1:35 PM


Reality= all opposites
Rob: Yes... but reality is good not evil.

Fallacy of false categories.

This is dumb, Rob. You should have caught this.

Reality is reality. It includes good and evil. It also includes light and dark, life and death, yin and yang, Elvis and Elvis impersonators.

You have seen this before. You have not refuted it or even attempted to.

And let's face it--as concepts go, this is rather basic.

Insisting that 'darkness is only the absence of light, impersonators are only the absence of Elvis' doesn't change any of this. Reality would still include both the 'presence' and 'absence' states of whatever it is you're talking about.

And there you are.

Now I'll go back to your post and start Sentence 2. It's hard to expect much after a disastrous start like that, but we'll see.

_______


Archer

All species are transitional.


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Larni
Member
Posts: 3975
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 103 of 105 (399131)
05-04-2007 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Rob
05-03-2007 3:55 PM


Re: What is evil?
quote:
Rob writes:
If human beings are not evil by nature, then we do not need a savior.

Larni writes:
Now if you assert that we do not need a saviour if evil is not real it is encumbent on you to provide evidence of your assertion that evil is real.

Rob writes:
We need a savior. And it is not the government (other men).

So you refuse to answer and retreat from your original assertion?

Way to debate Rob.

Why don't you give some evidence instead of circular reasoning?

Rob asserts that we need a saviour because if are evil.

Rob asserts we are evil.

Rob asserts we need a saviour.

Bullshit.


Can you please address this post?

BTW: Why not ask admins to move this forum into Faith and Beleif?


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AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1907
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 104 of 105 (399136)
05-04-2007 7:01 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Larni
05-04-2007 3:56 AM


Re: What is evil?
Larni writes:

BTW: Why not ask admins to move this forum into Faith and Belief?

Larni, I agree with you and will do so right now.
This message is a reply to:
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AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1907
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 105 of 105 (399137)
05-04-2007 7:03 AM


Thread copied to the Is Anything Evil? Does Evil Exist? thread in the Faith and Belief forum, this copy of the thread has been closed.
  
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