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Author Topic:   for the record (re: guns thread)
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 61 of 305 (399334)
05-05-2007 2:06 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by petrophysics1
05-04-2007 3:31 PM


Re: On why own guns.
Did you hear about massive school shootings then. No!
School shooting - Wikipedia
08-01-66
05-04-70
05-14/15-70
06-12-76
01-29-79
01-20-83
I hope I need not go on. don't know why there are some non-US listings in there, though.
16 after columbine. 13 before columbine. (data only goes back to 1966 in this listing, columbine is 99). I'll dig up more later--tis late, and I've an exam tomorrow.
so there are school shootings (and some massive) before Columbine.
I don't really see how an increase in gun control has lead to more shootings and more mass shootings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by petrophysics1, posted 05-04-2007 3:31 PM petrophysics1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by petrophysics1, posted 05-05-2007 6:30 PM kuresu has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 62 of 305 (399361)
05-05-2007 5:40 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by New Cat's Eye
05-04-2007 12:15 PM


When guns are a rare liability
When you pass laws regulating guns, all you do is affect the "good guys", as the "bad guys" aren't obeying the laws anyways.
One day, this debate will move past this insane argument. This idea that 'good guys' always obey the law and that 'bad guys' always break it. Its such a black and white 'American' perspective, and it needs to be addressed.
I break some laws. In some eyes, I'm a bad guy. I know someone who breaks more laws than me. And someone that breaks more laws than him. I know ex-gangsters, fences, thieves, drug dealers, poachers, prostitutes...
These are 'bad guys' by most definitions, but not one of them has illegally owned guns (though they have all carried weapons from time to time, often illegally). I'd have to take a step up the 'bad guy' hierarchy before I'd have a good chance of coming into contact with a firearm.
With sufficient restrictions - guns become very hard to get hold of, and too risky to possess. Anyone seen with a gun will find themselves having lots of questions asked of them, and most bad guys want to avoid having questions asked of them (ever notice how bad guys tend to obey traffic regulations?). Unfortanately, when guns are a big business, and the market is flooded, this seems like a pipe dream.
Sure, in the US, with the prevalence of guns in the state that it is - such a world seems entirely alien, but that doesn't mean it is black and white. Is it easy, possible, or practical to reduce the number of guns in the US to the point where petty criminals don't bother with firearms? I don't know, but it is surely deserves more than writing it off with a slogan.

This message is a reply to:
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berberry
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 305 (399363)
05-05-2007 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Nuggin
05-04-2007 7:12 PM


Re: On why own guns.
Nuggin writes:
quote:
So, you advocating that we attempt to achieve something like "2 guns per person" is not exactly the best plan to reduce gun deaths, is it?
Your point has already been proven, although most people seem to have forgotten. Perhaps someone should do a bit of research about the old American West.

W.W.E.D.?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Nuggin, posted 05-04-2007 7:12 PM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 64 of 305 (399370)
05-05-2007 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by berberry
05-05-2007 6:59 AM


Re: On why own guns.
Well, as we all know, the Wild West took place before violent movies and violent video games therefore there was no violence in the Wild West since these are the only two things which cause violence.

This message is a reply to:
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Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 65 of 305 (399428)
05-05-2007 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by jar
05-04-2007 2:10 PM


Re: On why own guns.
jar writes:
It is not illegal to own a handgun or rifle in England.
Yes it is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 05-04-2007 2:10 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by jar, posted 05-05-2007 3:06 PM Larni has replied
 Message 90 by Modulous, posted 05-06-2007 1:12 PM Larni has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 66 of 305 (399429)
05-05-2007 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Larni
05-05-2007 3:00 PM


Re: On why own guns.
Sorry but there are target shooting clubs and you guys even field some Olympic shooters, unless I am mistaken.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Larni, posted 05-05-2007 3:00 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
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petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 305 (399453)
05-05-2007 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by kuresu
05-05-2007 2:06 AM


Re: On why own guns.
kuresu
Let's see. My point was that there are more school shootings now than in the sixties. I also pointed out that there is more gun control now than then. I never said gun control caused more shooting.
Where did you get that?
I posted a link which listed 36 shootings since Columbine, that's 8 years and asked to see evidence of a like number in the sixties (60-69).
Sooooooooo, your list has one (Austin 8/1/66). What do you suppose that means? Think it might mean more school shootings today?
Let's take a look at your data.
Hmmmm, 16 shootings since Columbine, 1999. Hey that's 16 in 8 years or 2 per year.
13 before Colombine in 33 years. That's .3939 per year.
Thanks for proving my point!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by kuresu, posted 05-05-2007 2:06 AM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by kuresu, posted 05-05-2007 7:03 PM petrophysics1 has not replied
 Message 74 by crashfrog, posted 05-05-2007 8:42 PM petrophysics1 has replied
 Message 75 by nator, posted 05-05-2007 9:07 PM petrophysics1 has not replied
 Message 80 by Nuggin, posted 05-06-2007 1:51 AM petrophysics1 has not replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 68 of 305 (399455)
05-05-2007 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by petrophysics1
05-05-2007 6:30 PM


Re: On why own guns.
what you have is correlation. not causation. plus, those are the well known shootings in the US. also, not all of those were massive.
University of Texas--13 dead, 31 wounded. (1966)
Jackson State--2 dead, 12 wounded (1970)
California State--7 dead, 2 wonded (1976)
Cleveland Elem. School--1 dead, 8 wounded (1979)
Parkway South Jr. High--2 dead, 1 wounded (1983)
Cleveland Elem. School (Stockton)--5 dead, 29 or 30 wounded (1989)
University of Iowa--6 dead, 1 wounded (1991)
Simon's Rock College--2 dead, 4 wounded (1992)
Richland High School--2 dead, 1 wounded (1995)
Frontier Jr. High--3 dead (1996)
Pearl High School--3 dead, 7 wounded (1997)
Heath High School--3 dead, 5 wounded (1997)
Jonesboro--5 dead, 10 wounded (1998)
Thurston High School--4 dead, 25 wounded (1998)
Columbine High School--15 dead, 24 wounded (1999)
Heritage High School--6 wounded (1999)
Santana High School--2 dead, 13 wounded (2001)
Appalachia School of Law--3 dead, 3 wounded (2002)
Rocori High School--2 dead (2003)
Southwood Middle School--stabbing (so don't know why it's in the shooting list)
Red Lake High School--7 dead, 7 wounded (2005)
Cambell County High School--1 dead, 2 wounded (2005)
Platte Canyon High School--2 dead (2006)
West Nickel Mines School--6 dead (2006)
Virginia Tech--33 dead, wounded unknown--2007.
Now take a look at those statistics--only 3 have more than 10 deaths. 16 have 5 or fewer deaths. [abe: 4 are in the 6-9 range. in fact, after 7 dead, the next larget number is 13] What do you consider to be massive? If you take the 10+ number, one is in 1966, 1999, 2007.
[abe: deaths include suicides where appropriate]
Now then, how about the total number of homicides each year? Has it gone up with an increase in gun control, or are there perhaps other mitigating factors (such as increased population density)?
and besides, you said "did you hear about massive school shootings back then? No!"
but you did hear about massive school shootings back then.
[abe2: just saw that you stated that you never claimed gun control led to more shootings. You made a statement to the effect of: well, now we have more gun control and more shootings than back then. Seemed to me you were arguing causation]
[abe3: the list of shootings is not exhaustive. I would think, however, that something of the magnitude of U of T could be found easily.]
[abe4: homicide data, only going back to 1976 unfortunately
percentage of homicides by gun:
http://bjsdata.ojp.usdoj.gov/...ate/RunHomTrendsInOneVar.cfm
total number of homicides:
http://bjsdata.ojp.usdoj.gov/...ate/RunHomTrendsInOneVar.cfm
funny thing, this. it seems to peak in the 90s (number of homicides), but the percentage done with a gun is kind of everywhere, though in many states it's going down over the years). If increased gun control is leading to more shootings, this data doesn't show that.]
Edited by kuresu, : No reason given.
Edited by kuresu, : No reason given.
Edited by kuresu, : No reason given.
Edited by kuresu, : No reason given.
Edited by kuresu, : fixed counting error. misread "12 wounded" for "12 dead". so that makes 3 massive shootings (over 10 dead).
Edited by kuresu, : for ringo being such a pain, removed the kent state school shooting, and changed the number for shootings with 5 or less deaths to reflect its removal. happy now, ringo?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by petrophysics1, posted 05-05-2007 6:30 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by ringo, posted 05-05-2007 7:38 PM kuresu has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 69 of 305 (399458)
05-05-2007 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by kuresu
05-05-2007 7:03 PM


Re: On why own guns.
Wasn't Kent State a National Guard action? You can hardly compare that to "whacko" shootings like Columbine.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by kuresu, posted 05-05-2007 7:03 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by kuresu, posted 05-05-2007 7:45 PM ringo has replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 70 of 305 (399459)
05-05-2007 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by ringo
05-05-2007 7:38 PM


Re: On why own guns.
true. I'm just counting school shootings period, though. Not taking into account the disturbed. And if you'll notice--the top 3 shootings are all by "disturbed" people.
petro never made any statements about the minds of the shooters. Just that back then, you didn't hear about them (shootings, that is).
Edited by kuresu, : fixing the error from previous post of mine that continued into here. 3 shootings, not 4.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by ringo, posted 05-05-2007 7:38 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by ringo, posted 05-05-2007 8:04 PM kuresu has replied
 Message 77 by petrophysics1, posted 05-05-2007 11:48 PM kuresu has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 71 of 305 (399464)
05-05-2007 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by kuresu
05-05-2007 7:45 PM


Re: On why own guns.
kuresu writes:
petro never made any statements about the minds of the shooters.
Military and police shootings aren't effected by civilian access to firearms, so they're irrelevant to this discussion. Who did the shooting and why is more important than the location.
Ignoring that fact makes it look like you're trying to weight the numbers in your favour.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by kuresu, posted 05-05-2007 7:45 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by kuresu, posted 05-05-2007 8:25 PM ringo has replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 72 of 305 (399467)
05-05-2007 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by ringo
05-05-2007 8:04 PM


Re: On why own guns.
sheez, I'll remove it then. It's still a school shooting, though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by ringo, posted 05-05-2007 8:04 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by ringo, posted 05-05-2007 8:37 PM kuresu has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 73 of 305 (399471)
05-05-2007 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by kuresu
05-05-2007 8:25 PM


Re: On why own guns.
kuresu writes:
It's still a school shooting, though.
Only if you're very sloppy with your definitions. It was an abuse of government power, in no way significant to this discussion.
As was Jackson State. (Watch me go slowly down the list.)

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 74 of 305 (399472)
05-05-2007 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by petrophysics1
05-05-2007 6:30 PM


Re: On why own guns.
Thanks for proving my point!
What is your point, exactly? That gun control causes shootings?
I never said gun control caused more shooting.
Oh. Well then I guess I'm confused. How can Kuresu be proving your point when you've just said you're not making that point?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by petrophysics1, posted 05-05-2007 6:30 PM petrophysics1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by petrophysics1, posted 05-05-2007 11:27 PM crashfrog has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 75 of 305 (399476)
05-05-2007 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by petrophysics1
05-05-2007 6:30 PM


Re: On why own guns.
Hey, petro, I've asked jar several questions about guns and gun control in this thread and he seems to be uninterested or unable to address them.
Since you seem to be in agreement with him on this issue, I was wondering if you wouldn't mind having a stab at them?
You can see them here and here.
And also this post of Nuggin's.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by petrophysics1, posted 05-05-2007 6:30 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

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