for the record (re: guns thread)

If you say I have trouble understanding your position as it's laid out, how does repeating it the exact same way over and over and over again make you think I will suddenly see it?If I really am having trouble understanding your position, it's only because you've been doing a very crappy job at explaining it. While the other anti-gunners may have the inside feelings to understand what the hell you're saying, I”and you said it wasn't just me, but in fact other pro-gunners”don't have a damn clue what the hell it is you're getting at.So, instead of just copy-pasting a post you already made, why not explain it differently, since the way you are explaining it doesn't seem to be working?Jon

You have misread the logic. The logic goes: When intent is murder, gun will be used.NOTWhen gun is used, intent is murder.These two statements are profoundly different. In effect, you created your own strawman and then falsified that. Care to retract?Jon[added in response to your edit]
Just because someone makes a song about guns only being used for killing doesn't mean it's true. You aren't seriously trying to use that as evidence, are you? If not, then it was really a lot of extra crap to dig through, and added nothing in way of the debate.
[/added in response to your edit]Edited by Jon, : No reason given.Edited by Jon, : oops

you made the statement: that implies that guns are used solely for murder.I think you're just mad I caught your flaw. I have no need to retract when you wrote your statement badly. (hint--it's that "only" bit that shot you in the foot).your statements in this post are much more logical and clear.ABE: THe focus of that song is on handguns, not guns in general. And it was a way to show you that guns are used in cases where the intent is not murder--again, your statement I quoted was badly worded, so the logic was bad. You fixed your logic in the post I'm now replying to.Edited by kuresu, : No reason given.

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As I asked before, prove it. If I am in a bar, and get the notion that I want to fight someone, just because I have a gun on hand doesn't mean I am going to pick it up and shoot them to death.

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No, but NOT having a gun on you reduces the chances of you shooting someone by quite a lot, doesn't it?And HAVING the gun on you increases the chances of you shooting someone compared to not having it, doesn't it?

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People only use guns when their intent is MURDER!

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Oh? I thought that people who have them legally only use them in SELF DEFENSE.But hey, if your argument is that the only reason people use guns is for murder, then we definitely should ban them outright, shouldn't we?I'm sure you didn't mean to say this, so perhaps you might consider thinking through your arguments a bit more before posting.

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AND, if what they want to do is KILL, then they will do so however they can. Guns are an easy way to do it, but they are by no means the only.

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I have addressed this many times between the two threads, jon.It is precisely BECAUSE killing people is so EASY with guns that, when the violence that is inevitably going to happen occurs, more people die.It is quite difficult to beat or stab someone to death. It takes a long time. It takes quite a lot of strength or skill. Someone can run away from a beating or a stabbing in many cases.Let me ask you. Is any of this sounding at all familiar? I repeated it over and over again in the previous thread.

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I asked this before too. Provide the thorough documentation, or retract your claim that it exists.

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Dude, compared to other industrialized nations, the US has relatively unfettered access to guns.Read the first thread. I already did my research and turned it in. Don't blame me if you haven't read it yet.

Jon.Read the OP.Then, tell me who has the comprehension problem.

This assumes that when someone sets out to be violent, their intent is always murder. If my intent is NOT murder, then I will not shoot someone to death, whether I have a gun or not. If I DO want to kill someone, I will do it however I can, whether I have a gun or not. Do you disagree with this? If so, why? You misread that statement the same way Kuresu did.When murder, gun use.NOTWhen gun use, murder. No, you've given statistics in regards to murders and gun ownerships. You have NOT given any statistics that verifies whether access is really "easy" or it is "not easy." You don't need the stats for murders/gun ownership. You need the stats for gun access.Jon

How many people have to be convicted of voluntary manslaughter with a firearm before you would admit that not everybody who fires a gun at another person intended to kill them?Plenty of people bring a gun into a situation and even fire it at someone, but lack (at least in a legal sense) the intent to murder.Throughout, Jon, your arguments display a tenuous connection to the reality of firearms and their use in crimes. Unless you maintain that guns are something that nobody actually wants to own, rates of ownership are indicative of ease of access.

False. The higher the desire to own guns, the less effect difficulties of access will have. In other words, just because people own a lot of guns, does not mean they were EASY to get; it could just mean that they wanted them really really really really bad. So, do you have any evidence to back your claim up? Stats on that one? Show me, how many people actually DO commit involuntary manslaughter as opposed to voluntary? Also, how many of those people used guns?

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In other words, just because people own a lot of guns, does not mean they were EASY to get it could just mean that they wanted them really really really really bad. So, do you have any evidence to back your claim up?

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Gunshows. Edited by nator, : No reason given.Edited by nator, : No reason given.

On the other hand, if a lot of people own a few guns each, that would indicate that guns are fairly easy to get by people who don't really want them that badly. And that's certainly the case in the US.You're acting like it's a big mystery where the guns are, Jon, which again indicates that you're not restricting yourself to making arguments that are based on reality. Are you saying you don't know where you can buy a gun? You've never been to a sporting goods store? I know they have guns in sporting goods stores in Minnesota; I'm from there. Well, one single example of a person convicted of involuntary manslaughter with use of a firearm would be sufficient to prove you wrong, but according to BJS sources about 100,000 such crimes were prosecuted in 2001.

I don't think I ever said that guns weren't easy to access. Hell, I think it should be easier.So, I'm not sure what you two are arguing... Jon

Don't tell me you can buy guns at gun shows... holy crap, you can! Wow, this is the first I've ever heard of this. I mean, I knew you got groceries at the grocery store, cars from car dealers, electronics at electronics stores, and pizza from the pizzeria. But guns, at gun shows? Who would've thunk it!?

There are thousands of people in the US that could kill you with their bare hands before you could pull a revolver from your purse and shoot them. Our armed forces teach people how to do this all the time. The US ranks 8th and Switzerland ranks 19th murders per capita with a gun.Why is it that Jamaica with a handgun ban and only 1% of the people able to qualify to own a gun ranked 3rd behind only South Africa and Colombia in murders per capita. The Constitution grantees my rights to own and bear arms so that I can protect myself from my government and criminals of any type if it becomes necessary.I don't know about the rest of you folks but they can have my guns when they pry them from my hands after I am dead.BTW I have shot squirrels for food with my 22 pistol. When on the farm I used the 22 pistol to kill hogs on hog killing day. Single shot each animal. Weapons have many uses.

I am puzzled by what is meant by this statement. Are you saying that there are 100,000 instances of manslaughter in the US in 2001 due to firearms? Are these prosecutions successful or just filed? What is your direct source in the BJS as they are online and linking to this source should not prove too formidable a task.Granted I just did a cursory search but I can't find this information in either the BJS or the MMWR summaries.Edited by anglagard, : Change title and add last sentence.

No, weapons are meant to kill. There's no reason to own a weapon other than to kill another human being. Haven't you been reading Nuggin's posts? I believe he made that quite clear only like 1000 times.Jon