Ken Ham's Creation Museum

That make you feel better Buz? Excuse me Buz but you have said that you have the videos from some of the Liars, like the videos on the Exodus. If I am incorrect, then I apologize, if you do not send any money to any of the Christian Cult of Ignorance, then good for you.That does not change the fact though that Ken Ham and the Televangelists and WAR and ICR and Discovery Institute are here in the US simply because of the vast number of gullible members of the Christian Cult of Ignorance who send them money.Biblical Christianity is very profitable.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I actually agree with you Buz. Every person has his own perspective of the world, what might seem like evidence to one person would not necessarily seem like evidence to another. Lets assume, just like science does, that there is a absolute real world for us to explore - one that, if we could be all-knowing, we would agree on completely. Of course we are not all-knowing and so each of us has his own perspective. So, how would you go about exploring the world? Assuming you don't have enough time to explore it by yourself, you would need a method for people to explore by, and a standard of evidence to measure which hypothesis are probably real/true (are a part of the absolute world as described) and which are not.
Put yourself in the shoes of a scientist: How, if no standard of evidence exists, could we know anything about the world?
One person says one thing, another person says another thing, how do we decide?

It was not perpetuated by scientists either.But without even going into any inaccuracies in this claim, what I am actually asking for is exactly the same standard being applied to creationists: that when fraud and misrepresentations are uncovered that the displays be revised to correct the errors.This includes all claims of a young earth.Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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My understanding is that the Discovery Institute also does things outside of their ID thing. I haven't explored what else they're up to. I recall the Bill Gates gave DI a chunk of money for something.Now back to the Creation Museum?MooseEdited by Minnemooseus, : Left a word out.

Hi Kalimero. I appreciate your comments.Understaning the world and interpretation of evidence has a lot to do with one's backgound including education, upbringing, area/method of study, intelligence, access to research, ability to understand, willingness to observe all possibilities, et al. Without people like Ham and others all the people would have is what has been programmed into their thinking at school and the secularist museums.The evidence is that man of all cultures has had a religious bent since records have been kept. Imo, that is idicative that there is a spiritual dimension in the universe and that venues of observing alternatives to secularism are good for study and observation of what exists.As per topic, I don't agree with some of Ham's stuff, including young earth and young universe, imo an alternative kind of museum is good to observe. Likely there is some things in Ham's place that will allow for folks to observe where Ham's kind come from and why they interpret the evidence differently than secularists. Let the observer decide what makes the most sense to them. Let the parents decide what they want the kiddies to see and what they don't.I have studied fulfilled Biblical prophecy for over 50 years and see evidence of credibility in that record so with that corroborative evidence I tend to go with intelligent design and creationism for understanding the world. Most secularists are not aware of this corroborating evidence because they haven't studied it. Whether or not the tracks at Ham's place are valid or not, I believe dinos and man co-existed and that catastrophic flood changed the properties of the atmosphere and the earth's surface enough to account for the disparity of radiometric dating and the Biblical record.If alternative thought were outlawed as was the case last century in the secularist communist block nations, freedom to investigate and discuss all the possibilities would not be possible.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

Without people like Ken Ham brainwashing kids with false arguements about evolution and the age of the earth maybe people could -- just maybe -- decide things for themselves based on real information and logical evaluation of the facts instead of taking pap-packaged shinola as reality. Then lets NOT lie about what is real and valid in this world and use that as a basis to see what we can unwrap about the spirit world eh? This evidence that you speak of is also not specific to any one religion nor is there much congruence between them, so what is real about the spirit world cannot be judged by any ONE of them eh? Trying to have it both ways Buz? Seems like you are vacillating here: you agree that the earth is old, but you want it to be okay for Ken Ham and his ilk to portray a false impression of the age of the earth to people.I still ask: when is it time to stop lying to the kids about things like the age of the earth? Places in the world where alternative thought is most likely to be outlawed are the dictatorships - whether communist (in name) or theocracies (in fact). In the free world there is no need to outlaw alternative thought -- in fact alternative thought is NOT outlawed and is HIGHLY respected and encouraged in science -- provided it is an alternative and not fraudulent misrepresentation or denial of facts: then science is very harsh, not just on creationists but on other scientists. It needs to be a true alternative, and denial is not an alternative explanation, it is a failure of explanation.We do not need to discuss whether the earth is flat or whether the sun orbits the earth. We do not need to discuss the fact that gravity operates not just on earth but on the moon and the other planets, that the motions of the stars is dependent on gravity.The first standard of evidence is to stop lying about the evidence eh? Is it okay for parents to lie to their kids? Is it okay for parents to withhold the truth about the age of the earth from their kids? Is it okay for ignorant parents to prevent their children from learning more about the world than they did? Is that good parenting or is it child abuse?Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

quote:

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Understaning the world and interpretation of evidence has a lot to do with one's backgound including education, upbringing, area/method of study, intelligence, access to research, ability to understand, willingness to observe all possibilities, et al. Without people like Ham and others all the people would have is what has been programmed into their thinking at school and the secularist museums.

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So basically you think we need more museums run by people who lack education, don't do proper studies, can't be bothered to access research and aren't willing to even consider any possibilities that disagree with their own. The fact is that creationists typically come up very poorly compared to real scientists on all these measures.

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I have studied fulfilled Biblical prophecy for over 50 years and see evidence of credibility in that record so with that corroborative evidence I tend to go with intelligent design and creationism for understanding the world. Most secularists are not aware of this corroborating evidence because they haven't studied it.

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The reason why secularists haven't studied your examples is because you make them up. I dare say that many secularists know the real Bible better than you do. But that's because they actually read it properly.

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I believe dinos and man co-existed and that catastrophic flood changed the properties of the atmosphere and the earth's surface enough to account for the disparity of radiometric dating and the Biblical record.

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Yes you believe it. But you haven't got a plausible hypothesis as to how it happened or even could happen. You just won't do the research. Your only reason for believing it is that you don't like the other possibilities

I understand that you want free inquiry into the evidence, that's ok as long as people are not being deceitful. But the question remains: (I mean as a society, not as individual people)
If you suggest letting the people decide (democratically) - then I think that's a bad idea, for the simple reason that most people don't know much about science to come to any intelligent conclusion.

Razd, me friend, you and Jar sure do like to use that nasty word, "lie," when it comes to debate. It appears that since your arguments are weak, you think this handy little nasty meanspirited word will somehow lend credence to your weak arguments.I've shown how likely Ham is not deliberately lying, regardless of how you, I, Jar or anyone else regards what he thinks about the way things are. I've also documented that the kiddies have been deceived for over 3 decades by secularist museums and the science community which bought into the empirically proven case of fraud. Regardless of how long ago all that was or who initiated the fraud, the kiddies and the rest of the world were deceived by a lie which did not originate by nor was propagated by the Biblical creationist community.I just think it's time for you and Jar to stop accusing Ham of deliberately lying and at least allow him equal consideration that you grant to the conventional science community who have their own credibility deficiencies from time to time. I'm not accusing the science community of lying as you are regarding Ham. My forum conduct is above that level and my suspension record attests to that. My point is that he is not deliberately defrauding or lying to anyone. In America he has the right to present to the public what he sincerely believes to be true as he interprets the evidence which he is observing.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

Well then, Kalimero, what do you suggest? Should the govt shut down Ham's museum or should it be allowed to remain open for all to see and decide for themselves whether it's credible or not? You're critiquing and questioning a lot and methinks it's time for you to either commit to one proposal or the other or propose your own response to the topic OP.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

I think the creation museum has the potential of having an anti-creationism effect. The more exposure creationism gets the more it will look bad to more people.Moose

If we all left it all up to the professionals we'd be a whole lot worse off than we are, physically, mentally, financially and politically. I'm into alternative wholistic health for me and my family after having nearly lost my life due to the ineptness of the professional medical community who pretty much reject any treatment which does not involve big $$$. The same goes with auto repair, religion, politics and just about every other profession. Imo, Ham's place has it's faults but so do the secularist museums. LOL! The Jews are back in Israel, the world is emerging into a cashless monetary system, the weather is on the rampage, homosexuality is on the increase, Islam is emerging as the dominant global threat, children disobedient to parents, women are becoming our rulers, disasters are increasing at an alarming rate, the seas are raging, Biblical apostacy is the norm, travel is ever on the increase and at faster speed, the nations are being drawn into the Mid-East, fires on the increase, knowledge on the increase, hatred of Christianity and Bible significant, Israel surrounded with hostile nations, et al et al et al.Which of these profoundly proposed providential apocalyptic prophetic predictions, me friend, can you or have you and your secularist friends debunk/debunked lately? Hmmm? I have so presented my reasons for why I go with this hypothesis. I go with the corroborating evidence of the credibility of the Biblical record and apply that to what I've proposed in my arguments over the years in the forums. Until it's empirically debunked or until I see something making more sense overall, factoring in the corroborating evidence, I hold to it, completely confident that it's the most plausible hypothesis scientifically and otherwise.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

Hi Moose. I'm not so sure folks are abandoning Biblical creationism en masse after visiting it and likely the more credible aspects of it are bringing some secularists into the fold of Christianity and Biblical creationism. I've never been there so this is speculative on my part. Imo it's likely having a more positive effect than negative so far as Biblial creationism goes. I hope so, but I also hope Ham and his constituents will wake up to the fact that Genesis one does not present a young earth and most certainly a young universe is totally incompatible with the Biblical record as per the eternal existence of God. (My understanding is that Ham is a young universe creationist, 'YUC' but not absolutely positive about that.)

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

It is possible, however unlikely that Ham is not deliberately lying, he could be such a fanatic that he has lost any touch with reality and therefore could be similar to another person whose conclusions you have defended in the past, Wyatt. IIRC you have defended Wyatt's ark but not so much the blood of Christ, or tabernacle discoveries. Would you be willing to differentiate between Ham's cult-induced insanities in the same manner?Also, as I'm sure has been repeatedly pointed out, Piltdown Man was not accepted by much of the scientific community and was eventually discovered as a fraud by the scientific community. Why do some in the YEC, or YCC community still demand such frauds as the Paluxy River tracks are fact after they have been renounced by both AIG and the research arm of the founders of modern young earth creationism, the Seventh Day Adventist Church?The only way that modern museums could be the equivalent of Ham's creation museum is if they were still perpetrating a fraud after being denounced by their own, something neither Wyatt nor Ham, or their supporters are evidently prepared to do despite any Biblical commandments to the contrary.Edited by anglagard, : clarity

The weather is on the rampage, homosexuality is on the increase, children are suddenly disobedient, disasters are increasing at an alarming rate, women are becoming our rulers, Biblical apostasy is the norm, fires on the increase, et al?Go ahead start another thread and we can see what the extent of your knowledge of history, and that of your own professed religion, is again for the umpteenth time.Edited by anglagard, : Forgot some histronics.