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Member (Idle past 5931 days) Posts: 563 From: Brisbane, Australia Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Arguments 'evolutionists' should NOT use | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
kbertsche Member (Idle past 2153 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
Ringo writes: I think "there's no proof in science" is an argument that evolutionists should NOT use. I strongly disagree, for two reasons:1) this is not the way people normally use the word "proof" in relating to science. They generally mean a logical proof similar to what is used in mathematics. You want to redefine the word for them, which is a big job and has questionable merit. 2) this clouds a very important issue for how science is done. Namely, scientific theories must be amenable to DISproof (they must be disprovable in principle), but are never provable in the same sense. This concept is essential for understanding modern science, and redefining the word "proof" will cloud the issue. In doing science, we need to be careful to truly be scientific. Overstating the case, overstressing the evidence, and claiming things are "proven" when they are not will backfire in the long run, because such approaches will convey a philosophical "faith commitment" rather than an objective scientific position.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2153 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
No, I want to use the word the way that they (the layman) use it. Or rather, I don't want to use the word at all because the scientific definition and the lay definition are so different. Not using the word at all is an option, if there really is the difference in understanding that you claim. Maybe I've been a scientist for too long; I prefer to communicate some basic scientific concepts rather than deferring completely to lay terminology. The concept that scientific theory is not provable but must be in principle disprovable is very fundamental to science. I have given a number of talks to describe science and the scientific method for non-scientists, and this is something I always stress. I have not had difficulty in communicating the concept.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2153 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
This I also disagree with. Scientific theories are no more amenable to rigorous disproof than they are to rigorous proof: it is always possible to retain a theory, whatever the evidence, by modifying auxiliary hypotheses, and sometimes that's clearly the right thing to do. I'm no philosopher of science, but my impression is that falsification is pretty much dead as a demarcation criterion for science. In practice, one produces evidence for and against theories. No, falsification is still alive and is ESSENTIAL for something to be a scientific theory. If it's not falsifiable, it's not science! Yes, sometimes the theory can be modified to fit the new data, but sometimes it can't . Either way, the original theory was shown to be false. This is just the very basic scientific method, which I was taught in grade school. And this is the way science is done professionally, whether you agree with it or not. I am really surprised at how many folks here misunderstand or disagree with the scientific method! I am new to posting here; my initial impression is that this crowd is either not very scientifically literate or is intentionally being disingenuous to promote some agenda other than science. If you want another opinion, take a look at "scientific method" in wikipedia. Here's an excerpt:
Falsifiability, or the elimination of plausible alternatives. This is a gradual process that requires repeated experiments by multiple researchers who must be able to replicate results in order to corroborate them. This requirement, one of the most frequently contended, leads to the following: All hypotheses and theories are in principle subject to disproof. Thus, there is a point at which there might be a consensus about a particular hypothesis or theory, yet it must in principle remain tentative. As a body of knowledge grows and a particular hypothesis or theory repeatedly brings predictable results, confidence in the hypothesis or theory increases. And here's an excerpt from the entry on "science":Scientists never claim absolute knowledge of nature or the behavior of the subject of the field of study. Certain scientific "facts" are linguistic (such as the fact that humans are mammals), but these are true only by definition, and they reflect only truths relative to agreed convention. These deductive facts may be absolute, but they only say something about human language and expression, but not about the external world. This part of science is like mathematics.
Another part of science is inductive, and attempts to say something about the external world which is not true by definition, but can be shown to be true in specific instances by experiment or observation. Unlike a mathematical proof, a scientific theory which makes statements about nature in an inductive way, is always open to falsification, if new evidence is presented. Even the most basic and fundamental theories may turn out to be imperfect if new observations are inconsistent with them. Critical to this process is making every relevant aspect of research publicly available, which permits peer review of published results, and also allows ongoing review and repeating of experiments and observations by multiple researchers operating independently of one another. Only by fulfilling these expectations can it be determined how reliable the experimental results are for potential use by others.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2153 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
Ringo writes:
Thanks for the clarification. My approach is still to start by trying to explain the classic scientific method to non-scientists. I find that this gives a better context for discussing science, and it's not very hard to explain. I'm not saying that the no-proof argument is a "bad" argument, per se or that it's "wrong". I'm saying it's an ineffective, even counter-productive argument when used on people who don't understand the scientific method. Maybe I should have called it a bad strategy instead of a bad argument. One of the problems that I see with science at the lower levels (grade school, high school, even undergrad) is that it is presented much too dogmatically. This gives people the mistaken notion that science is all about "truth" and "certainty", whereas it is really better characterized by "exploration" and "discovery". Explaining the scientific method helps to address this.
sfs writes:
My understanding of the philosophy of science is that there are lots of different perspectives which conflict with one another. The leading proponents are not scientists, and do not really understand science. They offer some good insights, but get lots of things wrong, too. So I would take philosophy of science with a grain of salt.
Well, yes, that is how it's taught in grade schools, but it's not how it's taught in current philosophy of science, at least as far as I know. sfs writes:
This is often true. In addition, different scientific specialties do their science quite a bit differently. I've been doing science professionally for a good twenty years now. It is worth noting that scientists are notoriously bad at systematically describing what they do for a living, so scientific experience may not be all that useful here. So if most scientists can't explain what they do, and most philosophers of science don't really understand science, where do we go for an explanation of how science is done? The best perspectives I've seen on how science is done come from actual scientists who have gotten interested in philosophy, but these folks are not as famous as the professional philosophers of science. i agree that the classic scientific method is an oversimplification in some ways, but I believe that it's still a good framework to explain science.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2153 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
sfs writes:
But this is pretty much the same idea as "falsifiability." It is the same sense that Newton's theories were "falsified" by Einstein's. Newton's still work quite well in many cases, but there are cases in which they break down and are "false".
Sure, some other theory was falsified. (Or rather, a better theory for neutrinos was found to match neutrino behavior better than the existing theory, which is not exactly the same thing.) The point is, however, that they thought they were testing a theory about the sun, but weren't. This is always a possibility when you have evidence that you think falsifies a theory -- maybe it's actually some other assumption that you've made that's wrong.
And this is how many scientific discoveries are made; things don't work as expected, and a good scientist hunts for the answer and finds that unexamined assumptions were wrong.
That's why you can't know for certain that you have disproved a theory any more than you can know for certain that you've proved one. Both falsification and verification are problematic.
Yes, on the basis of a single experiment one can never be sure. (And even on the basis of multiple experiments all done the same way.) This is why science demands repeatability and testability. Other experimenters will test a new theory with different procedures to try to improve upon the accuracy or precision, and eventually the various pieces will be sorted out.
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