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Author Topic:   The "Digital Code" of DNA
ringo
Member (Idle past 382 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 31 of 143 (400642)
05-15-2007 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Fosdick
05-15-2007 8:15 PM


Re: Back to digital codes
Hoot Mon writes:
... molecular biologists have adequately confirmed that DNA (and RNA) is the only carrier of genetic information, and that other big molecules are not.
So what?
Every molecule can do something that no other molecule can do.
The question here isn't whether or not DNA/RNA can carry genetic "information". It's how that information is carried.
I'm saying that the information is carried in the structure of the molecule itself. The structure is the "information". All molecules carry structural information - it just isn't used as genetic information by other molecules.
You have claimed that that is not a sufficient explantion. Show us the inadequacy.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Fosdick, posted 05-15-2007 8:15 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Fosdick, posted 05-16-2007 1:13 PM ringo has replied

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5470 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 32 of 143 (400729)
05-16-2007 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by ringo
05-15-2007 8:27 PM


Re: Back to digital codes
Ringo, you wrote:
I'm saying that the information is carried in the structure of the molecule itself.
Well, of course. Music is carried by the molecular structure of a CD too, but that doesn’t mean that music is only a condition of structured plastic molecules. The same thing is true for genes.
The structure is the "information".
No. It is the order in the structure that is the information.
All molecules carry structural information -
But do they all carry digital information?
- it just isn't used as genetic information by other molecules.
True enough. The shifting sands of the Sahara Desert have no need for genetic information to shape its dunes.
You have claimed that that is not a sufficient explantion. Show us the inadequacy.
Ah, yes, the imperious “us.” I doubt if I can show you anything that will correct your chronic myopia. If genetic codes are too much for you then what am I suppose to say.
”HM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by ringo, posted 05-15-2007 8:27 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by ringo, posted 05-16-2007 2:16 PM Fosdick has replied
 Message 47 by happy_atheist, posted 06-23-2007 8:57 AM Fosdick has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 382 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 33 of 143 (400739)
05-16-2007 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Fosdick
05-16-2007 1:13 PM


Hoot Mon writes:
Music is carried by the molecular structure of a CD too, but that doesn’t mean that music is only a condition of structured plastic molecules. The same thing is true for genes.
That assertion is getting old. Show us that "the same thing is true for genes".
The structure is the "information".
No. It is the order in the structure that is the information.
The order is the structure.
All molecules carry structural information -
But do they all carry digital information?
  1. You haven't shown that DNA carries "digital information".
  2. What difference does it make whether or not the information is "digital"?
I doubt if I can show you anything that will correct your chronic myopia.
That's just the point: You haven't shown anything yet, except your personal incredulity.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Fosdick, posted 05-16-2007 1:13 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Fosdick, posted 05-16-2007 3:04 PM ringo has replied

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5470 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 34 of 143 (400754)
05-16-2007 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by ringo
05-16-2007 2:16 PM


Ringo's digitophobia
Ringo wrote:
The order is the structure.
You mean to say that "Beethoven's 5th Symphony" and "O Canada" are only bunches of structural blips on a plastic disk?
1. You haven't shown that DNA carries "digital information".
2. What difference does it make whether or not the information is "digital"?
. You haven't shown anything yet, except your personal incredulity.
And I suppose your personal credulity is sufficient to trump that of Richard Dawkins, who says in River Out Of Eden (1995, p. 19):
quote:
Genes are pure information”information that can be encoded, recorded and decoded, without any degradation or change of meaning. Pure information can be copied and, since it is digital information, the fidelity of the copying can be immense.
Why are you so affraid of these biological digits? Aren't they chemical enough for you?
”HM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by ringo, posted 05-16-2007 2:16 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by ringo, posted 05-16-2007 3:12 PM Fosdick has replied
 Message 36 by AdminPD, posted 05-16-2007 3:19 PM Fosdick has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 382 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 35 of 143 (400756)
05-16-2007 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Fosdick
05-16-2007 3:04 PM


Re: Ringo's digitophobia
Hoot Mon writes:
You mean to say that "Beethoven's 5th Symphony" and "O Canada" are only bunches of structural blips on a plastic disk?
I have asked you to show how DNA is analogous to a CD. Please do that.
Richard Dawkins writes:
Genes are pure information”information that can be encoded, recorded and decoded, without any degradation or change of meaning. Pure information can be copied and, since it is digital information, the fidelity of the copying can be immense.
I'm not disagreeing with Dawkins at all.
Dawkins said that genes are "pure information". I'm saying that the information on a DNA molecule is based on its structure. The information is the "gene". The "gene" is the structure.
Why are you so affraid of these biological digits?
Why would I be afraid of something that doesn't exist?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Fosdick, posted 05-16-2007 3:04 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Fosdick, posted 05-19-2007 12:12 PM ringo has replied

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 36 of 143 (400759)
05-16-2007 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Fosdick
05-16-2007 3:04 PM


Warning
Hoot Mon,
Please argument the position and not the person.
Please direct any comments concerning this Admin msg to the Moderation Thread.
Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour timeout.
Thank you Purple

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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5470 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 37 of 143 (401365)
05-19-2007 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by ringo
05-16-2007 3:12 PM


Digital info: "single nucleotide polymorphisms" (SNPs)
Ringo, I still don't know why you object to viewing nucleotides as digits. You wrote:
I have asked you to show how DNA is analogous to a CD. Please do that...Dawkins said that genes are "pure information". I'm saying that the information on a DNA molecule is based on its structure. The information is the "gene". The "gene" is the structure.
Perhaps you have heard of "single nucleotide polymorphisms" (SNPs). Wouldn't you agree that SNPs are clear evidence of digital information located on the DNA moloecule? Obviously, digital SNPs are manifest in the DNA's structure, and in that of a gene, just like digital notes are manifest in a CD's structure. An entire gene can be affected by a SNP (and you wouldn't want to hear someone miss a single note of Mozart's "Piano Sonata in C "). What can be more digital than that, especially when it is encoded as a linear message on the DNA "structure" (nature's "sheet music," ay?)?
”HM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by ringo, posted 05-16-2007 3:12 PM ringo has replied

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 Message 38 by ringo, posted 05-19-2007 12:24 PM Fosdick has replied
 Message 43 by Wounded King, posted 05-19-2007 7:15 PM Fosdick has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 382 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 38 of 143 (401366)
05-19-2007 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Fosdick
05-19-2007 12:12 PM


Re: Digital info: "single nucleotide polymorphisms" (SNPs)
Hoot Mon writes:
Wouldn't you agree that SNPs are clear evidence of digital information located on the DNA moloecule?
How is that information anything other than the structure of the molecule?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Fosdick, posted 05-19-2007 12:12 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Fosdick, posted 05-19-2007 1:30 PM ringo has replied

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5470 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 39 of 143 (401374)
05-19-2007 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by ringo
05-19-2007 12:24 PM


Re: Digital info: "single nucleotide polymorphisms" (SNPs)
How is that information anything other than the structure of the molecule?
Because it comprises the encoded gene. Are you really denying that genes are encoded on DNA? Are you also saying that Watson and Crick should give back their Nobel Prize in chemistry?
”HM
Edited by Hoot Mon, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by ringo, posted 05-19-2007 12:24 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 05-19-2007 1:40 PM Fosdick has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 382 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 40 of 143 (401375)
05-19-2007 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Fosdick
05-19-2007 1:30 PM


Re: Digital info: "single nucleotide polymorphisms" (SNPs)
Hoot mon writes:
Are you really denying that genes are encoded on DNA?
We're talking about how the genes are "encoded". I'm saying that the "code" is simply the structure of the DNA molecule.
Here's a simple schematic of a molecule:

O - G - D

It can carry different "information" just by the arrangement of the components:

G - O - D D - O - G

What's the problem?
Edited by Ringo, : Added missing quotation mark.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Fosdick, posted 05-19-2007 1:30 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Fosdick, posted 05-19-2007 3:22 PM ringo has replied

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5470 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 41 of 143 (401386)
05-19-2007 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by ringo
05-19-2007 1:40 PM


Re: Digital info: "single nucleotide polymorphisms" (SNPs)
Ringo, you wrote:
We're talking about how the genes are "encoded". I'm saying that the "code" is simply the structure of the DNA molecule.
Here's a simple schematic of a molecule:

O - G - D

It can carry different "information" just by the arrangement of the components:

G - O - D D - O - G

What's the problem?
Thank you demonstrating my point about SNPs. I guess you agree then that a codon is a genetic "word" that expresses any one of 20 amino acids. Case closed.
”HM

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 Message 40 by ringo, posted 05-19-2007 1:40 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by ringo, posted 05-19-2007 3:31 PM Fosdick has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 382 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 42 of 143 (401390)
05-19-2007 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Fosdick
05-19-2007 3:22 PM


Re: Digital info: "single nucleotide polymorphisms" (SNPs)
Hoot Mon writes:
I guess you agree then that a codon is a genetic "word" that expresses any one of 20 amino acids.
No. There are no "words" in DNA other than the structure of the molecule. The information is carried by the structure of the molecule. There is no "code" other than the structure of the molecule.
The structure of the molecule is sufficient to explain the reactions of the molecule.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Fosdick, posted 05-19-2007 3:22 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Fosdick, posted 05-19-2007 7:37 PM ringo has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 43 of 143 (401412)
05-19-2007 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Fosdick
05-19-2007 12:12 PM


Re: Digital info: "single nucleotide polymorphisms" (SNPs)
What can be more digital than that
A lot of things given the high level of polymorphism which can be present without having any structural effect at all on the produced protein. Do you think you could change every third note of a Piano concerto and get away with it?
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Fosdick, posted 05-19-2007 12:12 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5470 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 44 of 143 (401417)
05-19-2007 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by ringo
05-19-2007 3:31 PM


Re: Digital info: "single nucleotide polymorphisms" (SNPs)
Ringo, you wrote:
There is no "code" other than the structure of the molecule.
I do see what you are saying here: If there were no structural DNA molecules there would be no genetic code. Of course that's true. And if there were no musical instruments there would be no music either. Yet music and genes have meaning beyond their respective tools of performance. Remember, a gene does not die when its chromosome is destroyed; there are many copies of it in the gene pool”redundantly digital information. Neither does a song die when a player and his paino and sheet music are lost in a fire. I don't mean to say there is anything necessarily ethereal about genes or music, only that their meanings can be intrepreted digitally in a digital context (which is ethereal enough for me, btw).
”HM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by ringo, posted 05-19-2007 3:31 PM ringo has replied

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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5470 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 45 of 143 (401419)
05-19-2007 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Wounded King
05-19-2007 7:15 PM


Re: Digital info: "single nucleotide polymorphisms" (SNPs)
WK wrote:
A lot of things given the high level of polymorphism which can be present without having any structural effect at all on the produced protein. Do you think you could change every third note of a Piano concerto and get away with it?
No. That's the beauty of the genetic alphabet; it has evolved redundancy in its code definitions as a means to defend against third-order SNPs.
”HM

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