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Author Topic:   A Deteriorating State :: Morality in the 21st Century
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 65 (401292)
05-19-2007 3:25 AM


Morality in the 21st Centurty
Is religious fundamentalism bringing our moral system down faster than Agnostic beliefs can rebuild it?

Hundreds of years after Copernicus showed us that the Earth is not the centre of the solar system, and after Darwin showed us that humans aren't the biggest and the baddest; religious fundamentalism is alive and well. But unlike the stored and controlled strains of Small Pox, religious fundamentalism moves unchecked but for the few skeptical minds of an all-too-easily-convinced populace. Is it spreading too fast? Do these clans of outspoken literalists have the power to radically change our world, or has the general public seen through them like a light beam through glass?

Earlier tonight, Don Shelby and the WCCO news team reported on a demonstration held at Pequot Lakes High School by the religious organization You Can Run but You Can't Hide. The group had been scheduled to give a talk about bullying, respect, and drugs; but their personal agenda soon became clear. After singing a song about resisting drugs, they began lecturing the students on virginity, marriage, showing graphic images of abortions, even telling the students that a woman's role was to obey her husband!

According to the news report, many students and teachers began walking out during the performance. The principal, equally as shocked, gave an apology for originally inviting the group to the school. The group said it stood by its message and plans to continue preaching it.

The students, the school officials, the news report, and I would imagine the general public all have shown a distaste for the message. Is this a sign of an improving morality for our nation and world, or is the mere existence of this group a sign of a worsening society?

Does the state of our morality still risk such deterioration at the hands of the virus of religious fundamentalism? Where do we stand?

Jon


I will post a link to the news report as soon as the news website has made it available online. To check for it yourself, see http://wcco.com. You can also check the website of the Pequot Lakes area newspaper here. A May 9th news report sums up what was expected of the presentation that went terribly awry.

Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Edited by Jon, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
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AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1907
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 2 of 65 (401295)
05-19-2007 3:46 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 65 (401298)
05-19-2007 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
05-19-2007 3:25 AM


Re: Morality in the 21st Centurty
I think the answer to your first question is a qualified yes. The qualification comes from your use of the oxymoron 'Agnostic beliefs'. If you'd phrased that last part "faster than non-believers and liberals can rebuild it?" I'd have answered with a loud and resounding yes!


W.W.E.D.?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jon, posted 05-19-2007 3:25 AM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 65 (401303)
05-19-2007 6:00 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by berberry
05-19-2007 4:27 AM


Re: Morality in the 21st Centurty
What's the difference between a liberal and religious fundamentalist?

I group them together.

Non-believers? You must mean Atheists. Well, they are equally as bad as the liberals. I group them in the same place.

The only people who are true to what is known are the Agnostics.


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Replies to this message:
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 Message 7 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-19-2007 6:42 AM Jon has responded
 Message 14 by tudwell, posted 05-19-2007 3:23 PM Jon has not yet responded
 Message 41 by nator, posted 05-20-2007 7:05 PM Jon has responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 185 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 5 of 65 (401307)
05-19-2007 6:30 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Jon
05-19-2007 6:00 AM


Re: Morality in the 21st Centurty
The only people who are true to what is known are the Agnostics.

Looks like you haven't been paying much attention to what atheists have been saying recently. There are very few people who hold the position 'I believe no god exists'. Even Richard Dawkins does not hold this position. He holds the position that 'I don't believe that any god exists, they could exist, but then any unfalsifiable proposition could be true, thus any described deity could also exist - as well as Russell's teapot, IPUs FSMs...'. Dawkins even points out that there are very few people who will say they are agnostic about Russell's teapot.

The only people who are true to what is known are the Cartesians. Agnostics believe in the existance of tables, and fridge magnets and roads, and Duran Duran - yet they cannot know for sure they exist - they have only their flawed 'senses' to tell them.

Modern atheists demand evidence before they will accept a position as being worthy of consideration. Agnostics are either the same, or they single out religion as being worthy of special consideration when it comes to unfalsifiable propositions.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Jon, posted 05-19-2007 6:00 AM Jon has not yet responded

  
ohnhai
Member (Idle past 3243 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 6 of 65 (401309)
05-19-2007 6:37 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Jon
05-19-2007 6:00 AM


Re: Morality in the 21st Centurty
The only people who are true to what is known are the Agnostics.

Show me a non-existent invisible pink unicorn and I will happily accept that as proof as they don't exist...

Based on the current level of proof for the existence of God (ie NONE) I am happy to conclude that he/she/it doesn't exist. as with the unicorn problem above, I am well aware of the issues of proving the non-existence of a non-existent thing. I have to concede this difficulty re:God, making me 'technically 'Agnostic on the subject.

However IF the choice is existent over non-existent and after five thousand years of searching there is zero evidence FOR existence then non-existence is not an unreasonable stance to take, despite not being able to 'Prove' it.

While it is perfectly fine to be agnostic about many things (like the the colour of Vlaimir Putin's underpants at the very moment you read this) to remain so in the light of the crushing lack of evidence for god's existence is, in truth, cowardly fence sitting.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Jon, posted 05-19-2007 6:00 AM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16087
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 7 of 65 (401311)
05-19-2007 6:42 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Jon
05-19-2007 6:00 AM


Re: Morality in the 21st Centurty
What's the difference between a liberal and religious fundamentalist?

I group them together.

That must cause you to make some very peculiar mistakes.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Jon, posted 05-19-2007 6:00 AM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 65 (401377)
05-19-2007 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by ohnhai
05-19-2007 6:37 AM


Re: Morality in the 21st Centurty
Based on the current level of proof for the existence of God (ie NONE) I am happy to conclude that he/she/it doesn't exist.

See, this is where you are dishonest with yourself. An Agnostic 'doesn't conclude God does exist,' whereas an Atheist/you 'concludes God doesn't exist.'

It's one thing not to come to conclusion X, scientifically there is really no reason we should come to conclusion X; nothing leads us toward it. But, to come to a conclusion of non-X? That's where you fall into this trap, as you noted:

I am well aware of the issues of proving the non-existence of a non-existent thing.

There can never be evidence for a non-X—a non-existent God—, yet you conclude non-X to be true. From where do you draw your evidence? From where do you draw your faith for this belief other than from the same dirty well from which is drawn the water of religious fundamentalism and blind/stupid faith?

Jon


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 65 (401378)
05-19-2007 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Dr Adequate
05-19-2007 6:42 AM


Re: Morality in the 21st Centurty
What's the difference between a liberal and religious fundamentalist?

I group them together.

That must cause you to make some very peculiar mistakes.

Actually, it's thinking they are different that causes the mistakes ;)

Edited by Jon, : Double-decker code mistakes! :-þ


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Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 65 (401380)
05-19-2007 2:59 PM


As promised, the link to the recently updated article:

Assembly at High School Creates Controversy

Jon


  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 65 (401381)
05-19-2007 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Jon
05-19-2007 2:44 PM


Re: Morality in the 21st Centurty
Wow, you've really got a thing for oxymorons, don't you? What the hell is a "non-existant God" and precisely how does one go about concluding whatever it is you think someone has concluded about him?

Why do you insist that atheism is some sort of active belief? Is it inconceivable to you that someone might not believe in a god for the same reason that you don't believe in a tooth fairy (there's an assumption in there, I trust it's a safe one)?


W.W.E.D.?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Jon, posted 05-19-2007 2:44 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Jon, posted 05-19-2007 3:02 PM berberry has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 65 (401382)
05-19-2007 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by berberry
05-19-2007 2:59 PM


Re: Morality in the 21st Centurty
Wow, you've really got a thing for oxymorons, don't you? What the hell is a "non-existant God" and precisely how does one go about concluding whatever it is you think someone has concluded about him?

Why do you insist that atheism is some sort of active belief? Is it inconceivable to you that someone might not believe in a god for the same reason that you don't believe in a tooth fairy (there's an assumption in there, I trust it's a safe one)?

Go back, reread my posts without assuming I hold any type of belief system, and tell me if you realize the error in your post. If you cannot, I will tell you. ;)

Jon


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by berberry, posted 05-19-2007 2:59 PM berberry has responded

Replies to this message:
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berberry
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 65 (401384)
05-19-2007 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Jon
05-19-2007 3:02 PM


Re: Morality in the 21st Centurty
Jon writes me:

quote:
Go back, reread my posts without assuming I hold any type of belief system, and tell me if you realize the error in your post. If you cannot, I will tell you.

No thanks, I already read that post more than once. I can only make sense of part of it. And I'm making no assumptions about your personal belief system. I'm merely asking why you seem to assume that one who fails to believe in a god is therefore actively believing in some sort of non-god. Why can't someone simply not believe in supernatural fairy stories of any sort?


W.W.E.D.?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Jon, posted 05-19-2007 3:02 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Jon, posted 05-20-2007 12:37 AM berberry has not yet responded

  
tudwell
Member (Idle past 4060 days)
Posts: 172
From: KCMO
Joined: 08-20-2006


Message 14 of 65 (401388)
05-19-2007 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Jon
05-19-2007 6:00 AM


Re: Morality in the 21st Centurty
What about liberal Agnostics?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Jon, posted 05-19-2007 6:00 AM Jon has not yet responded

    
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2185
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 15 of 65 (401391)
05-19-2007 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
05-19-2007 3:25 AM


Re: Morality in the 21st Centurty
It seems that so far, morality is more advanced in this century than the last one. I tend to see history as a story of progress despite the occasional and geographically limited loss to the Luddites and Fundamentalists.

In fact, I understand the latest version of Firefox even has a spell checker. Now that's a form of progress I think we can all agree on. :)


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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