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Author Topic:   DRUGS!
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 128 of 180 (401256)
05-18-2007 9:19 PM


I just found this thread and have finished reading it. These kinds of threads allow us to get to know one another a little better, for sure. I have some tid bits to share for what they're worth.
1. I grew up being taught in church that Biblical wine was not alcoholic and that drinking wine today was sinful. Well, that's what's cool about daily Bible reading on your own as well as church. It became clear from the scriptures, both OT and NT that drinking wine was not immoral or sinful. If it was, Jesus would have been a sinner. They had to use new wineskins because the new wine (working) would break the old wineskins, so it was fermented et al. King David had his wine cellars.
I began drinking wine and beer moderately and carefully in my twenties. It did not go over well with family or church but neither did some other differences like being a health food faddist into wholistic healing, some of my prophecy interpretations, et al, et al. I didn't fit into some churches much better than I fit in here but hey, I'm my own person and need to live life, think and do what I believe is right and scriptural.
2. I've never smoked a cigarett, did drugs, either perscription or otherwise except once when the doc put me on Librium. Well that ended up to be a nightmare about 35 years or so ago and nearly wiped me out so haven't taken a drug of any kind since.
3. The red wine has resveritral in it naturally which is very good for the arteries and health in general. The problem with most modern wines and beers is that they have nitrites in them (poison), and they are grown on worn out soils meaning they lack much of the nutrients and dope you up with the bad chemicals used in growing and processing the wine. I drink very little wine but likely would drink more if I got around to making my own.
4. The Bible says wine is a mocker meaning it will destroy you if you don't drink very carefully. The same, of course goes for beer.
5. I find that when I drink a glass of wine I get a small high where it actually clears my mind but it doesn't last for long, leaving me somewhat sluggish. However with a significant meal, it has little effect except to add a little cheer to the heart on occasion. That's why at the wedding feast they could drink more after Jesus made more up out of water. With a feast the effect appears to be that of making folks amiable and friendly, et al. I believe the nitrites in modern wine are part of the problem with sluggishness and hangovers when no excessive amounts have been consumed.
6. The problem with my evangelical Christian friends is that so many of them consume all kinds of junk foods like ice cream, candy, white sugar and white flour products et al et al and judge others for drinking a little wine, when in fact, some wine would help suds out their arteries so as to counter some of the fatty junk that clogs them up and sends them either to the rest home to be a burden to others or an early grave. Both of these things happened to my poor ole mom % dad who were very intelligent folks normally. My mom had MS for about 40 years but had a good mind all those years being an invalid but my dad lost his thinking ability in his sixties. He ate a big bowl of ice cream about every night before bed but wouldn't touch a drop of wine or beer.
Btw, I drink Rolling Rock beer, maybe 3 or 4 bottles a week. We get Johnson Estate wine which is quite good and fairly cheap from NY state but it does have nitrites so we don't bib much of it. Once every 10 days or so I drink two or three hefty glasses of wine for a general flush out of the gut and that it does for me quite nicely. Rolling Rock Beer didn't have nitrites in it in the past and I'm hoping it still doesn't.
7. Our friend is right in that drunkenness is immoral and sinful, at least according to the Bible. It says drunkards (habitual) will not enter Heaven. I believe it was Jesus that said that or maybe Paul.
8. IMO THE GREATEST SIN AND TRAVESTY IN THE WORLD AND ESPECIALLY IN AMERICA, BAR NONE, IS THE MONEY DRIVEN MEDICAL ESTABLISHMENT WHICH IS IN THE FAT POCKETS OF THE DRUG COMPANIES AND THE ABUSE BY THE PHARMACEUTICALS. THIS IS KILLING, MAIMING AND SICKENING HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF IGNORANT FOLKS WHO THINK THIS IS THE WAY TO GO WHEN IN FACT THERE ARE FAR CHEAPER, MORE EFFECTIVE AND SAFER ALTERNATIVES VIA THE WHOLISTIC NATUROPATH DRUGLESS REMEDIES. AMERICA IS "DYING FOR THE LACK OF KNOWLEDGE," AS THE BIBLE PUTS IT DUE TO THIS CURSE WHICH IS ENRICHING THE MDs & PHARMACEUTICALS AND MAKING AMERICA, THE RICH NATION ONE OF THE SICKEST CULTURES EVER TO EXIST IN HISTORY. WE LIVE LONG, SICK LIVES CONSTANTLY ENRICHING THE MDS AND DRUG CARTELS WHO KEEP PROPING UP AND PATCHING UP OUR FLABBY DOPED UP AND BROKEN DOWN BODIES, NOT TO MENTION OUR FOGGED UP MINDS, BEING ALSO DULLED BY OUR LIFESTYLES, MIND BOGGLING HABBITS AND DEFICIENT DIETS.
CHEERS AND A HEARTY TOAST B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW
Edited by Buzsaw, : spelling

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by nator, posted 05-18-2007 10:45 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 131 of 180 (401260)
05-18-2007 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by ringo
05-18-2007 4:47 PM


Ringo writes:
Drunkenness........ doesn't blockade morality.
I take issue with that, my friend. Drunkenness caused both Noah and Lot to mess up and has been causing folks to kill, steal, abuse and otherwise cause all kinds of immoral havoc in society ever since. It has a natural tendency to desensitize your moral inhibitions, as does some drugs, including psychiatric prescription drugs like prozac, ridilin et al.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by ringo, posted 05-18-2007 4:47 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by ringo, posted 05-18-2007 9:51 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 136 of 180 (401266)
05-18-2007 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by nator
05-18-2007 9:26 PM


nator writes:
Can someone who is "at the pinncacle of human reasoning" tell if their friend has a slight selenium deficiency?
In America the odds are that their friend, no matter who they are will likely have at minimum, a slight deficiency, yes.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by nator, posted 05-18-2007 9:26 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by nator, posted 05-18-2007 10:56 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 138 of 180 (401269)
05-18-2007 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by ringo
05-18-2007 9:51 PM


Your point is well taken, Ringo, in that most morally decent folks, no matter how drunk will not likely have their morality "blockaded" totally. Ok, I'll modify my position to say it could be highly impaired. Some otherwise good folks have caused disastrous things to happen to hapless victums via auto/train/boat accidents, suicide, murder et al due to drunkenness, drugs and other mind altering agents.
King Solomon in the Proverbs said it not for kings (those in power) to drink wine because it could lead to them making decisions and proclamations devastating to the nations they rule over.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by ringo, posted 05-18-2007 9:51 PM ringo has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 143 of 180 (401275)
05-18-2007 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by nator
05-18-2007 10:45 PM


Nator, I have a sizeable comfrey patch in one of my three gardens and drink the tea regularly with nothing but good effects. The tests the FDA used were via highly concentrated extracts of the root. The leaf tea has nothing but good effects.
The FDA and the powerful pharmaceutical conglomerates are in bed together for the $$$, for power/control and for undermining the real remedies for disease. Unless they can patent a remedy there's no $$ in it and they can't patent comphrey. It's as simple as that.
Yes you should not take root product internally in high concentrates. I've drank comfrey tea from my leaves for decades, not that I drink it daily, but usually mix it in with mint or something somewhat more flavorful. Here's a link which has the evidence for all to check out. Note that there's numbers at the top of the page of different things to read regarding this controversy.
http://www.herballegacy.com/contentions_m.htm
Btw, you miss my point that overall it's the natural relatively cheap food/herbal products that really do the most good without the side effects and scores of thousands die each year from prescription drugs in America alone. The MDs bury their mistakes, literally.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by nator, posted 05-18-2007 10:45 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by nator, posted 05-19-2007 8:10 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 150 by berberry, posted 05-19-2007 9:15 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 158 by Vacate, posted 05-20-2007 5:03 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 154 of 180 (401394)
05-19-2007 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by nator
05-19-2007 8:10 AM


nator writes:
As you can view in the link to that old thread I provided, I am talking about people who were prescribed comfrey by naturopaths or who ingested comfrey leaves in the belief that they were theraputic who subsequently suffered liver failure due to the known liver toxins present in comfrey.
Your claim that these folks simply ingested comfrey leaves is bogus. Read your own cited reports carefully and you will discover that in none of these cases was it established that it was leaves alone and all cases were questionable in one way or another.
questionable aspects writes:
The authors suggest that the patient's protein deficient diet could have played a contributory role; they attributed comfrey as a possible cause due to the temporal sequence of events. In a separate review of potential risk to consuming comfrey published in the Australian Medical Journal (15), the author declined to consider this case in his report because "there is some controversy surrounding this case."
Although some cases of liver damage may have been due to something other than the herbs, in most instances, other sources of the disorder were not evident or were deemed improbable.
Based on the Belgium recommended limit for PAs in herbs at 1 ppm, it would require ingestion of 1 kilogram (2.2 pounds) of an allowed herb to yield 1 mg (the smallest amount cited as toxic for comfrey ingestion), so the limit set would appear to be quite safe, in terms of any potential for acute reactions. Normal daily intake of herbs is usually only a few grams, so there is a large margin of safety;
A homeopathic doctor recommended comfrey tea. She consumed as many as ten cups per day in addition to taking comfrey pills by the handful,....
Btw, tea can be either from leaves or root. Nothing substantiates that a reasonable amount of comphrey leaf is dangerous. If the FDA were 1/100th as pickey about the horrendous life threatening pharmaceuticals as they were about the naturals, we'd all be safer.
Again the controversy over this natural product is all about $$$, power and control.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by nator, posted 05-19-2007 8:10 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by nator, posted 05-19-2007 6:40 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 155 of 180 (401395)
05-19-2007 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by berberry
05-19-2007 9:15 AM


Great Story
berberry writes:
I pay a lot more attention to what I eat than I ever did before. ........There is absolutely no question that I am much healthier today...........
Those two phrases are are the bottom line to the good health life minus the pharmaceuticals. Now go for the real long term satisfying high Add to the mix, daily doses of Biblical principles and a one time shot of Holy Spirit baptism/conversion/spiritual birth like bike stuntman Evel Conevel who once thought he had all one could desire recently did.
Thanks for sharing your story.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by berberry, posted 05-19-2007 9:15 AM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by berberry, posted 05-20-2007 2:45 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 165 of 180 (403140)
05-31-2007 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by nator
05-20-2007 7:09 AM


Re: The problem with Buz and herbs
nator writes:
The estimated 2006 earnings of the nutritional supplement/herbal drug industry was just under 6 billion dollars.
Yes, Buz, that's billion, with a "b".
LOL. That's pocket parking meter dimes compared to the pharms. Pfizer alone, just one of the hundreds of pharms did 52 billion (also with a "b") in one year. The entire nutritional supplement/herbal industry only did in 2006 what just one of the lesser pharms did in 2004.
My guess is that the entire pharm industry does over half a trillion in a year and possibly a trillion or more.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by nator, posted 05-20-2007 7:09 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by nator, posted 05-31-2007 11:49 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 166 of 180 (403145)
05-31-2007 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Vacate
05-20-2007 5:03 AM


Vacate writes:
Is your rejection of medication a more general attitude or a complete rejection of all pharmaceuticals? As I say, I pretty much mirror your opinion, but I am curious about the details.
I listen regularly to Dr. Julian Whittaker head of the Whittaker Wellness Institute, the largest alternative health care facility in America. He's probably my favorite alternative professional. He goes on radio often with Deborah Rae who hosts a week daily 1 hour show He uses a minimal amount of pharms in his facility along with alternatives.
Personally I don't take any pharms of any kind and see no reason to since there seems to be alternative and diet solutions to anything that's come up in our family. I would certainly never recommend anyone go off parms cold turkey without professional healthcare advice.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Vacate, posted 05-20-2007 5:03 AM Vacate has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 168 of 180 (403147)
05-31-2007 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by riVeRraT
05-20-2007 7:36 AM


Re: The problem with Buz and herbs
Riverrat writes:
....they don't care about the money, they would do it for free
Well not quite free, but close to it and nearly all with good side effects compared to the extremely high prices of so many of the pharms most of which have their bad side effects.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by riVeRraT, posted 05-20-2007 7:36 AM riVeRraT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by nator, posted 05-31-2007 11:53 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 170 of 180 (403149)
06-01-2007 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by nator
05-31-2007 11:49 PM


Re: The problem with Buz and herbs
nator writes:
So, what I want to know is will you also start criticizing the nutritional supplement industry for being a big, profit-driven industry?
Generally, no. Compared to pharms mega billions, nutritionals are packet change. All business must make a profit and yes there are some nutritionals who are in it for $$ with little regard for the public.
Nutritionals must consistently provide beneficial services and results if they are to make it bucking the established healthcare industry so deeply entrenched in our culture or stay in business. The FDA is very tough regarding any side effects of the nutritionals or say a death or two whereas they allow hundreds of thousands of deaths a year due to the pharm problems, not to mention all the suffering and lifetime problems often associated with them.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by nator, posted 05-31-2007 11:49 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by nator, posted 06-01-2007 12:46 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 173 of 180 (403336)
06-01-2007 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by nator
06-01-2007 12:46 AM


Re: Schraf's Wrong On Herbs & Alternatives
schraf writes:
City A has one million people in it.
City B has 6 million people in it.
The fact that City B is so much larger than City A does not mean that City A is not still a very large city.
Both industries are profit-driven big business, even though one is larger than the other.
Poor analogy: There are likely as many alternative little companies as there are pharms. The difference is that the big $$$ is in the pharms but the really safe & efficient benefits are in the
alternatives which use diet, exercise, concentrated food/herbal and fruit extracts, seeds, fish oils, herbal oils, spices, et al et al.
The pharms don't want anything to do with anything that they can't patent so as to make their big $$$. They can't patent rasberry seed extract or fish oil, for example, because it's simply a food product. So the big corporations looking for mega bucks and huge profits are the real ones in it for the profit.
Not only that, but often herbalists risk being prosecuted for claiming what they can do even more efficiently for disease as a cure whereas pharms get by with everything including killing people from side effects of their products.
schraf writes:
And how do they get punished if they sell products that they didn't know would hurt people?
They seldom get punished simply because rarely can it be shown that they ever hurt anyone. My question to you oto is why don't the pharms get punished for the hundreds of thousands they are hurting all the time? Hmmm? Could it be that there's too many $$$ and politics in it so everyone looks the other way?
schraf writes:
Snake oil salesmen have historically always been able to make a good living preying on the gullible and desperate.
Would you like to document where this is widespread in the major alternative health facilities? The science tech is mushrooming on alternatives and many MDs are integrating it in their practice. Not only that, but the major super markets are being forced by public demand to stock the organics and many of the alternative products.
schraf writes:
First of all, we have very little knowledge of the chemical compounds in many herbs and their effects, and since most of them are not prescribed through MD's but are taken OTC or through "herbalists" who are not (unlike MD's) required to keep records and report any problems, we actually do have not much of any idea if herbals are causing problems unless they are very serious.
Hogwash! The reason they aren't required to keep records is that we're talking about know edible products which have been consumed for eons for the most part. Mind you, the FDA would be all over these folks if they had any suspicion that they were harming anyone.
Furthermore, the folks in the $$ and the politics have no interest whatsoever in investigating the herbals and alternative. Why, because they'd be confronted with the FACT that the alternatives are far safer and in the long run usually far more effective. Why do you think so many folks who the MD's send home to die go to the alternatives as a last resort, often with the pleasant results of finding the real cure for what the MDs failed to accomplish?
schraf writes:
, Second, it is far more likely that herbs marketed to cure ailments or "support" various body systems have little to no effect at all, because the companies that sell them are not required to show that they are effective for what they are supposed to do.
Madear, this goes to show that you don't know what you're talking about and dead wrong about the alternatives. This is a field that you don't master in a fortnight. Apparantly you're trying to make the www think you're some kind of an authority on both the alternative healthcare when it's obvious you are quite ignorant on the science of both. I've been in it for decades and still learning. Alternatives have worked for me and my family without the need for MDs and the substantiated testimonies of others corroborate it all.
schraf writes:
Third, hasn't it ever struck you as odd that you can't go to the healthfood store and pick up a bottle of Herbal Cancer Cure, Herbal Epilepsy Relief, or Herbal Cystic Fibrosis Ender?
Again, the more you talk, the more you show your lack of knowledge on the subject. The reason you WON'T EVER SEE a bottle of herbal cancer cure, epilepsy relief, et al is because of that word WHOLISTIC. Alternatives do not treat symptioms. Alternatives treat the body. That's why so few side effects. If you have cancer, you begin to detoxify the body via the herbals, the water intake, the elimination of cancer causing agents in the diet, the drinking of herbal teas, the probiotics which cleanse, detoxify, and boost the imune system et al, et al. This will not only work to help the cancer, but will have a positive safe effect on every system of the body.
schraf writes:
Almost all of the stuff available is marketed for health issues that usually resolve themselves in a short time, like colds or seasonal allergies, or have no reliable way to judge if they are working, like preparatins for "immune-boosting", or "circulatory system support".
Wrong.
1. The stuff available works to effect a positive effect on the entire body, so whether you have arthritis, prostrate problems, cancer, colds, et al, that's what it's suppose to do.
2. Unlike the doc who writes you a quick prescription collects the big $$ from your insurance and sends you on your way in a few minutes, the alternative route uses a variety of products, adjusts the diet, educates you on what's causing the problem et al. Doesn't that make more science sense?
schraf writes:
But now that you mention it, Buz, I thought that you said that all of these herbs in bottles are food?
Why are they causing deaths at all if they are just nutritive foods and not theraputic herbal drugs meant to cure diseases and ailments?
I don't know of any deaths, but if there are any, c'mon, one or two compared to hundreds of thousands a year? Please be reasonable in your debating.
schraf writes:
Also, and you have made this error before, the number of people taking prescription drugs far, far, FAR exceeds the number of people taking herbal drugs, so of course the actual numbers of people reported to have problems with them is going to be greater.
Nonsense! Believe me in this day and age of media coverage, if a death or serious illness happens, the cause of death is found out and the bottom line is that regardless of how many people are treated, the deaths or significant bad effects just aren't happening from the alternatives, period.
schraf writes:
Combine that with the fact that there is no system in place at all for identifying nor making public problems with herbal drugs and it is no surprise that the straight numbers look like they do.
Schraf, you are out there in lala land all by yourself declaring that herbals are drugs. Get over it. Consumable herbs don't become drugs until they are patented as such and to do that they must be compounded into something that is unnatural and not just an herb. LOL if you think you can patent and make mega bucks from the grape seed extract which I take, for example.
schraf writes:
1) Comfrey contains high levels of pyrrolizidine alkaloids
2) Ingesting sufficient ammounts of pyrrolizidine alkaloids has been documented to contribute to hepatic veno-occlusive disease (liver failure)
1. Not in reasonable and natural state as I use it regularly via tea and poltice, et al. I even grab off a leaf and chew it up.
2. One would need to take an extraordinary amount of highly concentrated extract of the root to effect any significant damage.
3. Out of all the wonderful alternatives, you've found this etty bitty little one herb that you keep harping on. Why? Simply because that's your one itty bitty little straw to grasp onto so as to make the www think you've got some semblence of support for your looser arguments in this thread.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by nator, posted 06-01-2007 12:46 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Phat, posted 06-03-2007 3:03 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 175 by nator, posted 06-03-2007 10:13 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 178 by Archer Opteryx, posted 06-06-2007 2:21 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 176 of 180 (403951)
06-05-2007 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by nator
06-03-2007 10:13 AM


Re: Schraf, Please Stop Bloviating Your Nonscience.
I'm not going to have time to address all your bloviating, madear, and I'm very busy these days in my sole proprietor business, but will pick off some of your nonscience as I get the time. For now I'll see if I can make any more progress into getting into your thick head that food is not drugs, no matter how you spin it up.
schraf writes:
An herb is a drug if it has active ingredients in it that are ingested with the intent to produce a theraputic effect.
By this token, garlic, catnip, camomile, eyebright, celery, carrots, broccoli, parsley, rubarb, black rasberry, blueberries, flax oil, lecithin, wheat germ, fish oil, cocoa, oreganol, chickory, pepsin, mint, oxygen, chromium, zink, iron, magnesium, calcium, copper, manganese, eucalyptus, camphor, et al et al et al et al.........are all drugs which have a theraputic effect Why? Because these are some of the ingredients of common vitamins, minerals, treatments and herbal alternative supplements which alternative health practitioners use to alleviate the health problems of their constituents, the side effects of which are most always good and not devestating as is the case with so many pharms.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by nator, posted 06-03-2007 10:13 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by crashfrog, posted 06-06-2007 12:03 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 179 by nator, posted 06-06-2007 6:43 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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