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Member (Idle past 4870 days) Posts: 624 From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: DRUGS! | |||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2196 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Heeheeheehee
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nator Member (Idle past 2196 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Right now, the nutritional supplement industry is nearly completely unregulated. The industry has fought any law that would require them to prove their products' efficacy and safety. There is no standard for potentcy or dosage of most herbs. There is little known of herb/herb, herb/synthetic, or herb/food interactions. There is a great deal we don't know about herbal medications, including what chemical compounds are in them and what their effects might be, if any.
quote: Sure. He's never had my disagreement on that point. However, he has also claimed that for every and any affliction one might suffer from, there is a "natural" or herbal treatment or cure. I wonder what he thinks the herbal cure for epilepsy or cancer is?
quote: This is where he equivocates. I agree that "nutritional supplements" should actually be nutritive. But some things, like comfrey, that he calls "nutritional supplements" have no nutritive value and are more accurately classified as "herbal drugs". The lobbyists wrote the law to lump Citamin C and comfrey together under the same term, "nutritional supplement", to avoid having to show that their products are safe and effective.
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nator Member (Idle past 2196 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: You have consistently criticized the synthetic drug industry for being a big, profit-driven industry, and there is no doubt that it is exactly that. But the point is, buz, that you are avoiding acknowledging, is this: The nutritional supplement/herbal drug industry is a multi-BILLION dollar a year industry. That ain't no pocket change. It is a smaller industry, yes, but 6 BILLION dollars a year is still a big, big business. So, what I want to know is will you also start criticizing the nutritional supplement industry for being a big, profit-driven industry? Or, will you continue to give a SIX BILLION DOLLAR A YEAR for-profit industry a pass because of your bias in favor of it?
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nator Member (Idle past 2196 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Six BILLION dollars in profits a year is "close to free"? How do you figure that?
quote: Do you accept the factual basis of each of the following statements?A yes or no answer will suffice: 1) Comfrey contains high levels of pyrrolizidine alkaloids 2) Ingesting sufficient ammounts of pyrrolizidine alkaloids has been documented to contribute to hepatic veno-occlusive disease (liver failure)
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nator Member (Idle past 2196 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: That doesn't matter, buz, as I explained previously. I'll explain it another way. City A has one million people in it. City B has 6 million people in it. The fact that City B is so much larger than City A does not mean that City A is not still a very large city. Both industries are profit-driven big business, even though one is larger than the other.
quote: And how do they get punished if they sell products that they didn't know would hurt people?
quote: Bullshit. Snake oil salesmen have historically always been able to make a good living preying on the gullible and desperate.
quote: No, they are not. First of all, we have very little knowledge of the chemical compounds in many herbs and their effects, and since most of them are not prescribed through MD's but are taken OTC or through "herbalists" who are not (unlike MD's) required to keep records and report any problems, we actually do have not much of any idea if herbals are causing problems unless they are very serious. Second, it is far more likely that herbs marketed to cure ailments or "support" various body systems have little to no effect at all, because the companies that sell them are not required to show that they are effective for what they are supposed to do. Third, hasn't it ever struck you as odd that you can't go to the healthfood store and pick up a bottle of Herbal Cancer Cure, Herbal Epilepsy Relief, or Herbal Cystic Fibrosis Ender? Almost all of the stuff available is marketed for health issues that usually resolve themselves in a short time, like colds or seasonal allergies, or have no reliable way to judge if they are working, like preparatins for "immune-boosting", or "circulatory system support". But now that you mention it, Buz, I thought that you said that all of these herbs in bottles are food? Why are they causing deaths at all if they are just nutritive foods and not theraputic herbal drugs meant to cure diseases and ailments?
quote: The reason you hear about those problems at all is becasue the drug companies are required to find out about the risks and are also required to report problems if they happen. Herbal drug marketers are under no such obligation and there is no requirement to report any adverse effects of any herbal drug by anyone who prescribes them or takes them. Also, and you have made this error before, the number of people taking prescription drugs far, far, FAR exceeds the number of people taking herbal drugs, so of course the actual numbers of people reported to have problems with them is going to be greater. Combine that with the fact that there is no system in place at all for identifying nor making public problems with herbal drugs and it is no surprise that the straight numbers look like they do. Do you accept the factual basis of each of the following statements? A yes or no answer will suffice: 1) Comfrey contains high levels of pyrrolizidine alkaloids 2) Ingesting sufficient ammounts of pyrrolizidine alkaloids has been documented to contribute to hepatic veno-occlusive disease (liver failure)
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nator Member (Idle past 2196 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
City A has 6 million people.
City B has 1 million people. Is City B still a large city? A yes or no answer will suffice.
And how do they get punished if they sell products that they didn't know would hurt people? quote: Where are the records that show how many people were prescribed herbal drugs, which ones they took, the dosages, the length of time they took them, what other drugs they were taking, etc.? If there are no records kept, and there is no controlled testing done, we don't know if they hurt anyone, or if they help anyone, or if they have no effect at all.
quote: The Whitaker Wellness Institute you mentioned offers quite a few quack treatments that have not been demonstrated to have any (non-placebo) benefits other than lining the pockets of the people who hawk them, such as: Accupuncture. WWI lists many conditions, including infertility and Parkinson's disease that are supposed to be helped by accupuncture even though there is no evidence to suggest that it can. Chelation therapy, which has never been demonstrated to have theraputic benefit. Reflexology, which has never been demonstrated to have an effect on the course of any disease is claimed by the WWI to be effective in relieving symptoms of such conditions as stroke, allergies, and hemorrhoids. Here's a handy website where all manner of quack, untested or disproven treatments have been compiled and explained. You won't read it, but I feel I should provide it for completeness.
quote: Evidence, please.
quote: Evidence, please.
quote: So what? Major supermarkets are interested in making money in any way they can. They sell magnetic insoles and bracelets because the public demands them, not because they actually work.
First of all, we have very little knowledge of the chemical compounds in many herbs and their effects, and since most of them are not prescribed through MD's but are taken OTC or through "herbalists" who are not (unlike MD's) required to keep records and report any problems, we actually do have not much of any idea if herbals are causing problems unless they are very serious. quote: So what? There is still no way anybody can tell if the products are helping, harming, or doing nothing unless we have a record of who takes them, in what dosage, for how long, and what else it was combined with. A control group would be nice to have, too. Remember what happened with echinacia last year? Everybody thought it was so great for preventing colds becasue the marketing people in the supplement business were doing their jobs, the people selling the stuff made tons of cash, and then a couple of studies were done to test it's effectiveness.
Oops. Turns out echinacia is no more effective in preventing people from getting a cold than a placebo.
Third, hasn't it ever struck you as odd that you can't go to the healthfood store and pick up a bottle of Herbal Cancer Cure, Herbal Epilepsy Relief, or Herbal Cystic Fibrosis Ender? quote: That's bullshit. I can go to the vitamin store today and see thousands of herbal drugs that are marketed to treat symptoms. Headache, diarrhea, sore throat, insomnia, nervous tension, sinus congestion, etc., etc. Your WWI website lists all sorts of therapies meant to relieve symptoms, too.
quote: Which herbs are effective against cancer, buz? How do you know the immunse system is boosted by probiotics?
quote: How can you tell if the body is being hindered, or if the body is being helped, or if the body is unaffected by the probiotics and medicinal herbs?
quote: Unless the therapies and products have been demonstrated to be effective and safe through controlled studies, it makes no scientific sense whatsoever. And I think you are doing a great disservice to medical science and doctors when you paint them all with the money-grubbing brush. The elimination of smallpox wasn't done with herbals, buz. The greatly improved life expectancy of children in countries where vaccines have all but eliminated major childhood disease wasn't done with herbals, either.
Also, and you have made this error before, the number of people taking prescription drugs far, far, FAR exceeds the number of people taking herbal drugs, so of course the actual numbers of people reported to have problems with them is going to be greater. quote: I never said that they were only happening from herbal drugs, buz. Let me explain it another way, even though I know you will just ignore it: Group A has 1 million people in it. Half of them are taking a prescription drug, and since their doctors are required to keep records, and because the drug they are taking is sold in purified form and is standardized across brands for dosage, we know how much they are getting. We find that 5% of them get some of the known serious side effects. That's 25,000 people with serious side effects out of 500,000 taking the drug. 25,000 people sounds like a lot of people, but it is still only 5% of the whole group. Now, Group B has 500,000 people in it. Half of them are taking an herbal drug, but they are taking it either OTC, out of their own backyards, or on the advice of some book or non-MD herbalist, so there is no consistent record of their taking it. We don't know how long they took it, what dosage, or how much, if any, active ingredient was in their pill, because there is no such purity or dosage standard in the herbal industry. We don't ever know, therefore, if any of them get any side effects, if the drug as known to produce positive or negative effects, since it has never undergone objective testing and no records were kept. So we can't make any determination here at all of if the drug was having any effect, good or bad or neither.
ombine that with the fact that there is no system in place at all for identifying nor making public problems with herbal drugs and it is no surprise that the straight numbers look like they do. quote: You are just making up your own definitions for things here. An herb is a drug if it has active ingredients in it that are ingested with the intent to produce a theraputic effect. Willow bark extract was a drug long before it was ever purified and patented, for example, because it was used as a pain reliever. Nobody ingested willow bark extract becasue it tasted good or because it is nutritious. It was ingested becasue it was medicine. I can go into the helth food store and see many shelves devoted to "medicinal herbs" and "medicinal teas". It says that right on the labels. Herbal drugs and medicinal herbs are the same thing.
1) Comfrey contains high levels of pyrrolizidine alkaloids quote: You would be wrong about that, at least in part.
Institute for Traditional Medicine DOSE AND DURATION OF USE TO CAUSE HEPATOTOXIC REACTIONS The dose and duration of exposure to the toxic PAs that have been associated with liver damage in humans was estimated by Culvenor (22)....[snip] Thus, the range of toxic doses in humans appears to be in the range of about 0.1-10 mg/kg per day. In most instances of PA liver toxicity in adults, the daily intake was several milligrams or hundreds of milligrams per day. However, it has been suggested by the World Health Organization in 1989 that the lowest intake rate of PAs that reportedly caused veno-occlusive disease in a human was just 0.015 mg/kg of body weight per day, based on use of comfrey. For a 70 kg adult, that would correspond to 1 mg total per day. Exposure to PAs can vary markedly when using any given herb. Determination was made of PA content of comfrey roots and leaves by Couet and his colleagues (21); the roots had a range of 1400-8300 ppm, while the leaves had from 15-55 ppm. In an evaluation of 300 comfrey root samples in Germany, the PA range was found to be 450-5990 ppm (30). An evaluation of commercial comfrey products (10), showed that the PA content varied markedly: none detected in 2 products, to a range 0.2-220 ppm among 8 other products tested with detectable levels, and one with 1520 ppm (a comfrey root product). To reach a 1 mg per day dose, just 0.7 grams of herb at 1,520 ppm would be needed, about the amount that would be found in 3 of the 250 mg capsules, indicating that this product would be too toxic to consume on a regular basis. On the other hand, products with no detectable PAs and those with less than 1 ppm might be entirely safe. Further, method of preparation is also important. A decoction of root and leaf samples of comfrey lowered the available PAs by 75-95%. Different species of comfrey contain different types and amounts of toxic PAs. So, you could be giving yourself low-level doses of liver toxins, or you might be perfectly safe. You don't know, though.
2) Ingesting sufficient ammounts of pyrrolizidine alkaloids has been documented to contribute to hepatic veno-occlusive disease (liver failure) quote: Not true, as I showed above. Very small amounts of pyrrolizidine alkaloids can damage the liver.
quote: The reason I chose this specific example is to nail you down, Buz. You consistently speak in wide generalities and claim that herbs are never harmful and have hardly any side effects and can treat any ailment. I found an example where that is not true, and if you refuse to admit it, it just shows that you hold your opinion irrationally and religiously rather than having a rational, knowledge-based belief. I would like to remind you that I am not opposed to anybody purchasing any medicinal herb as long as the company selling it has demonstrated through controlled testing that the product is safe and effective for whatever it claims it can do. Likewise for claims made by authors and practitioners when they advise people to do or take certain substances. Right now, no medicinal herb company has to demonstrate that their products are safe and effective. Edited by nator, : No reason given. Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2196 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
An herb is a drug if it has active ingredients in it that are ingested with the intent to produce a theraputic effect. quote: Nope. Those are almost all either nutritive foods or minerals. They contain no active compounds that are ingested to produce a theraputic result. Like, you could never overdose on celery, but you can overdose on acetylsalicylic acid, the active compound in willow bark that produces the theraputic effect of pain relief, reduction in acute swelling, and fever reduction. This herb talk is pretty off-topic anyway, but if I have some time I'm going to start a new thread. I will restate my responses to your statements that you have avoided addressing. See you there.
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