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Author Topic:   behaviour
ogon
Member (Idle past 6129 days)
Posts: 70
Joined: 05-13-2007


Message 1 of 18 (401393)
05-19-2007 4:18 PM


Hope you guys don't think, here we go again we've heard this one before!
Behaviour, is it passed on like other characteristics?
I have seen sheepdog pups with no experience in the field take to herding and stalking like they have been doing it all their life!
edit by me
I've just re-read my post and I've answered my own quesion really!
I've asked is behaviour a part of the evolutionary process and then I've said I've witnessed it is through my own observation!
I guess what I'm asking really is, how can behaviour be passed on?
I'm having difficulty because, correct me if I'm wrong, evolution is biological, yes? Biological things are passed on through reproduction.
But, is behaviour biological? can it be studied under a microscope?
can it be seperated and studied biologically?
That's really what I was getting at. Blue eyes can be inherited BUT how so behaviour?
thanks for your patience guys and the simpler the better.
ogon
ogon
Edited by ogon, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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Message 2 of 18 (401588)
05-20-2007 8:33 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Doddy
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 3 of 18 (401594)
05-20-2007 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ogon
05-19-2007 4:18 PM


ogon writes:
Behaviour, is it passed on like other characteristics?
The most simple answer is "yes". There is certainly a 'learnt' component of behaviour, but much of it must come from genetic influences on brain development and function.
We thank identical twins (same DNA) who have been raised apart (different environment) for making this clear to us.
Just google "twin studies" and you will see.
ogon writes:
But, is behaviour biological? can it be studied under a microscope?
It is certainly biological. The brain is biological, and it controls behaviour.
Now, the problem with a microscope is that brain cells (neurons) transmit electro-chemically (action potentials), which can't be observed visually. You can, however, use electrodes to measure these signals, or use functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) to pick up the changes in blood flow associated with brain activity (action potentials require energy, and blood supplies the energy. Brain areas that are more active receive more blood).
The other good way to notice the biological nature of behaviour is when a biological effect (brain injury or stroke) causes a behavioural outcome. The most common example, though in my opinion not the best, is that of Phineus Gage.
Edited by Doddy, : clarification

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subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 4 of 18 (401607)
05-20-2007 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ogon
05-19-2007 4:18 PM


Heard this one before
Hope you guys don't think, here we go again we've heard this one before!
We frequently hear the same thing over and over. Usually it's the same ole creo misunderstandings and mistatements of evolution. Rest assured, ogon, even if you do ask questions that we've heard before, your excited curiosity and desire to learn are quite refreshing!

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 5 of 18 (401618)
05-20-2007 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ogon
05-19-2007 4:18 PM


As usual, you are looking at something complex
Sure there is a large biological component to behavior, but it also isn't that simple.
Behavior evolves in both the individual and in a population. Some things, such as what you see in the field dogs, may well be simply biological, but there is also a learned component. Lots simply doesn't get passed on.
While the basic capabilities to learn language may be genetic, learning a language is not.
While it appears, the basic capability to manipulate numbers may be genetic, math and algebra are learned.
While the basic capabilities needed to walk upright may be genetic, learning to balance on one foot, to hop, eventually to skip, are learned.
The answer when it comes to behavior is likely that both nature and nurture play their part.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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ogon
Member (Idle past 6129 days)
Posts: 70
Joined: 05-13-2007


Message 6 of 18 (401661)
05-21-2007 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
05-20-2007 11:07 PM


Re: As usual, you are looking at something complex
After reading through the replies I thought about the sheepdog and how the stalking isn't the first thing it does automatically. As soon as it is born it searches for the mothers teet in order to suckle.
BUT, this raised another question which I hope doesn't muddy the water! Is this rather instinct that behaviour? Or is the stalking instinct as well?
ogon

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Doddy
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 7 of 18 (401662)
05-21-2007 3:18 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by ogon
05-21-2007 2:35 AM


Re: As usual, you are looking at something complex
What do you define as instinct?
To me, instinct simply refers to those behaviours that are biologically determined, as opposed to learnt behaviours. So, I don't see it as an either-or scenario, but that instinct is a subset of behaviour.

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ogon
Member (Idle past 6129 days)
Posts: 70
Joined: 05-13-2007


Message 8 of 18 (401682)
05-21-2007 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Doddy
05-21-2007 3:18 AM


Re: As usual, you are looking at something complex
If a person throws a ball at you and it hits you in the face what happens when he throws the next ball? you duck! learned behaviour.
Now a new born swallow in my hometown here in the UK says to itself, it's getting a bit cold and then procedes to fly down south to North Africa, that to me is insinct, not learned behaviour.
So from what I now understand both are determined biologically. There must be some pretty powerful stuff going on in them there genes! fantastic!!
ogon

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 9 of 18 (401684)
05-21-2007 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by ogon
05-21-2007 11:26 AM


Migration and Instinct
Birds migrations, like your swallows, may not be a good example. Since they are a communal species with a fairly long lifespan (more than one migrations cycle) it could be either instinct or learned behavior.
But do some research on the Monarch Butterfly. That is almost certainly instinctual.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5828 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 10 of 18 (401692)
05-21-2007 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
05-21-2007 1:33 PM


Re: Migration and Instinct
Of course darwinists like learning explanation in the case of migration of birds.
I am not sure it is the case. There were done experiments by German scientisst - as far as I remember from Sheldrake - that also captive solitary birds that were bred alone started to oriented themselves according position of stars on artifical firmament when migratory period started.
Anyway sometimes because of storms birds found themselves on strange locations. Yet:
quote:
...storm blows the migrants sometimes thousands of kilometers off course. So at times pelicans from Mozambique may land up inland in Gauteng, being blown there by storms, to settle in for a week or two on open water; a dam, a nature reserve or a lake, only to leave and find their way across unknown territory to the place where they should be. This is achieved through the magnetic compass and being able to instinctively navigate back on course, after feeding and building up energy and fuel, through looking at the position of the of sun and the movement of the stars.
CANOPUS 99/06 - Bird Migration and Navigation
This orientation by stars is very interesting. I suppose darwinists do not like it - it would require some random mutation that created in heads of birds some map of celestial bodies on firmaments which they compare with real position of stars. I am not expert on navigation but even seamen do not oriented themselves on sea by stars without some other devices. So problem is so complicated that even experienced learned observer is unable to solve the orientation by star with naked eye only. You have to know the exact day and time you know.
And behind such phenomenon of birds orientation is only random mutation that created celestial map in their heads. According darwinism migratory birds without such celestial map created by RM did not survived - natural selection sent them to Hades I suppose.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 11 of 18 (401701)
05-21-2007 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by MartinV
05-21-2007 2:42 PM


Remedial Reading For MartinV
Perhaps you should find out what the theory of evolution is before you attempt to criticize it.

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 12 of 18 (401705)
05-21-2007 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by MartinV
05-21-2007 2:42 PM


Re: Migration and Instinct
MartinV writes:
This orientation by stars is very interesting. I suppose darwinists do not like it
Why would "darwinists" not like such data? The mechanisms of animal migration is an actively researched area by "darwinist".
MartinV writes:
it would require some random mutation that created in heads of birds some map of celestial bodies on firmaments which they compare with real position of stars.
Ah but not in one fell swoop. No one believes or proposes the straw man argument that you are hinting at, that a single random mutation coded a celestial navigation map in the brains of birds. It is the culmination and fine-tuning of small previous steps. For example, there are plenty examples of animals navigating by the Sun and Moon. Navigating by other smaller celestial bodies is but yet another more sophisticated step.

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ogon
Member (Idle past 6129 days)
Posts: 70
Joined: 05-13-2007


Message 13 of 18 (401706)
05-21-2007 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Dr Adequate
05-21-2007 4:21 PM


Re: Remedial Reading For MartinV
As with my other questions so far, I ask the question, I get replies, then I reflect and come to some understanding.
In the light of what I now know about evolution, swallow migration doesn't surprise me as much as it did. Afterall, there are great migrating species in the seas, and overland as well as in the skies.
Whatever the method it has most certainly evolved over millions of years. And let's face it, humans have evolved skills which now enable them to circumnavigate the world and have now taken to navigating outer space! And not so long ago you might have been deemed mad to suggest such a thing.
ogon

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Doddy
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 14 of 18 (401726)
05-21-2007 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by ogon
05-21-2007 4:52 PM


Re: Remedial Reading For MartinV
ogon writes:
In the light of what I now know about evolution, swallow migration doesn't surprise me as much as it did.
Let us suprise you again.
Many migratory species have magnetite in their ethmoid bones (those are a pair of bones in the skull), that creates a sense of direction. This is how many animals can tell which way is towards the equator, and instinct tells them which way to go as they feel the weather or their own hormones change, so they can migrate for the winter or for the breeding season.
Birds (most of which migrate at night) do, as MartinV was saying, use the constellations to navigate, but this is only after they have used their internal compass to work out the direction. After all, you have to be able to navigate when it's cloudy too. So, after spending months flying towards a certain star formation, next year it's pretty easy to recognise that formation again, even without using your compass.
They can also use the stars and geographical recognition to recalibrate their magnetic sense, and likewise use the magnetic sense to learn the stars.

Help inform the masses - contribute to the EvoWiki today!
Contributors needed for the following articles: Pleiotropy, Metabolism, Promoter, Invertebrate, Meiosis, DNA, Transcription, Chromosome, Tetrapod, Fossil, Phenotype, Messenger RNA, Mammals, Appendix , Variation, Selection, Gene, Gametogenesis, Homo erectus and others.
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Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 15 of 18 (401817)
05-22-2007 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by MartinV
05-21-2007 2:42 PM


Re: Migration and Instinct
MatinV writes:
This orientation by stars is very interesting. I suppose darwinists do not like it - it would require some random mutation that created in heads of birds some map of celestial bodies on firmaments which they compare with real position of stars. I am not expert on navigation but even seamen do not oriented themselves on sea by stars without some other devices. So problem is so complicated that even experienced learned observer is unable to solve the orientation by star with naked eye only. You have to know the exact day and time you know.
And behind such phenomenon of birds orientation is only random mutation that created celestial map in their heads. According darwinism migratory birds without such celestial map created by RM did not survived - natural selection sent them to Hades I suppose.
All correct: right up untill you use the word random without qualification. It is of course not random. Selection is taking place.
You even mention it.

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