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Author Topic:   Christianity Today: Atheism is the only rational outlook.
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 46 of 95 (402080)
05-24-2007 4:49 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by jar
05-23-2007 9:42 PM


Re: Lady Wisdom insists upon center stage
Phat writes:
Jesus did make a path possible, where before Him there was no path.
Jar writes:
If that is true the God is even more evil than anyone could imagine.
Of course, within the context of the belief, Jesus existed before any other human..so there was no lack of a path at any point in any humans personal history.
Jar writes:
Regardless of the reality of the Jesus story, it still is left to us to make the message, interpret the message and act on the message.
Left to us by whom? A message by definition needs to originate from a messenger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 05-23-2007 9:42 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by jar, posted 05-24-2007 7:49 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 47 of 95 (402092)
05-24-2007 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Phat
05-24-2007 4:49 AM


Re: Lady Wisdom insists upon center stage
Of course, within the context of the belief, Jesus existed before any other human..so there was no lack of a path at any point in any humans personal history.
Another silly soundbite theology.
That one is really stupid and negates ANY possible purpose to Jesus life among us.
Left to us by whom? A message by definition needs to originate from a messenger.
Really?
Another silly soundbite.
That is just more of the woo-woo factor silliness. Who is the messenger in a tree ring or waves on the sea or clouds in the sky?
We are critters that look for patterns and then try to figure out why they exist. We are the messenger.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Phat, posted 05-24-2007 4:49 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Phat, posted 05-24-2007 12:32 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 48 of 95 (402113)
05-24-2007 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by jar
05-24-2007 7:49 AM


She is almost human!
nemesis_juggernaut writes:
The hilarious thing to me is that more atheists, arguably far smaller in number than theists, spend more time at Christian websites than Christians do. Now, why is that?
Ringo writes:
Same reason as why the monkey house at the zoo is so popular.
"They're so much like us."
"They're almost human."
I can see and appreciate logical thought. I am personally curious why some people are so resistant to belief...as if they are afraid they will look stupid or something.
Santa Claus is one thing. The idea of a Creator who interacts or has interacted personally with humanity is quite another, at least in my acceptance.
I suppose that I really should stop worrying about changing or indoctrinating people!
Jar writes:
Christians should definitely question whether "Jesus is the way, the truth, and the light" and if they do so honestly, they will find that Jesus is not the way, the truth, and the light and that that is simply another of the soundbite nonsense phrases beloved of those who want to keep folk ignorant.
My defenses came up when I heard your assertion. I suppose that I shouldn't care what you say....IF my faith is strong, I don't have to accept being part of some mystical cult of ignorance either!
subbie writes:
The votes were for the position that atheism is the only rational position. That isn't a vote "against" Christianity. It's simply an acknowledgment that Christianity is based on faith, not reason.
Jesus as the Way is also based on Faith and not Reason. I agree with you that Christians who attempt to logically prove their faith are often attacking monsters instead of simply allowing windmills to move hot air! I get irritated at Jar when he mocks belief statements as silly soundbites and then retorts with soundbites of his own.
Two of his more famous ones?
1) It's Just That Simple
2) The Christian Cult Of Ignorance
While it can be argued that much of Christian fundamentalist/charismatic belief theology is ignorant of the real world, I personally do not believe that I am willfully ignorant by believing that Jesus is The Way, Truth, and Light.
Ringo writes:
"Who" killed God is anybody who looks at the situation rationally, who doesn't need to postulate a supernatural cause for the wind and the rain, who doesn't need to consult a "Supreme Being" for every tidbit of advice on life.
I disagree quite passionately! My Belief system encourages daily prayer and meditation. What makes you think that communing with God is in any way dysfunctional or promoting willful ignorance?
I think that people look for too many answers in test-tubes and secular psychological paradigms instead of praying and meditating and allowing the human subconscious to intermingle in Communion with the Divine and provide answers unobtainable through secular humanism and scientific empiricism.
Jar writes:
Who is the messenger in a tree ring or waves on the sea or clouds in the sky?
We are critters that look for patterns and then try to figure out why they exist. We are the messenger.
It is my belief that He (or She) had to become human in order to show us a pattern to follow. Yes, it is a personal belief. No, it is not something that I want everyone to blindly agree with.
If you disagree with the premise that Jesus is the answer, you better have a darn good reason why you can boldly proclaim your own intellect as the answer. Call me stupid, but I believe that my intellect left to its own devices inevitably disintegrates into Ego, Selfishness, and self-centered versus altruistic patterning.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by jar, posted 05-24-2007 7:49 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by mark24, posted 05-24-2007 12:54 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 50 by ringo, posted 05-24-2007 1:04 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 51 by jar, posted 05-24-2007 1:21 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 58 by nator, posted 05-25-2007 10:56 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 59 by riVeRraT, posted 05-26-2007 11:15 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 64 by nator, posted 05-27-2007 10:18 AM Phat has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 49 of 95 (402115)
05-24-2007 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Phat
05-24-2007 12:32 PM


Re: She is almost human!
Phat,
I can see and appreciate logical thought. I am personally curious why some people are so resistant to belief...as if they are afraid they will look stupid or something.
If I accepted something that would affect my behaviour throughout my life without evidence, I would not only look stupid, I would actually be stupid, surely?
Santa Claus is one thing. The idea of a Creator who interacts or has interacted personally with humanity is quite another, at least in my acceptance.
Why? There's no reason to accept either, I don't see how either proposition is qualitatively different.
If you disagree with the premise that Jesus is the answer, you better have a darn good reason why you can boldly proclaim your own intellect as the answer. Call me stupid, but I believe that my intellect left to its own devices inevitably disintegrates into Ego, Selfishness, and self-centered versus altruistic patterning.
The reason I don't accept that "Jesus is the answer" is because there is no reason whatsoever to accept the premise. I believe that qualifies as "a darn good reason", don't you?
That you implode into ego, selfishness, & self-centered "patterning" when your intellect is left to its own devices is a comment on you, not us. Moreover, it's a pretty piss-poor excuse for accepting the evidential equivalent of the tooth fairy as Absolute Fact.
When my intellect is left to its own devices, logic, reason & what Xians call the golden rule wins through.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Phat, posted 05-24-2007 12:32 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 50 of 95 (402116)
05-24-2007 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Phat
05-24-2007 12:32 PM


Re: She is almost human!
Phat writes:
I am personally curious why some people are so resistant to belief...
It's not resistance to belief per se - it's resistance to dependance on belief. Belief should never be anything but a fall-back position - it should never try to trump knowledge.
...as if they are afraid they will look stupid or something.
It's not fear of "looking" stupid so much as fear of being stupid.
A stupid person can have the strongest faith in the world. Does it make him less stupid?
Santa Claus is one thing. The idea of a Creator who interacts or has interacted personally with humanity is quite another, at least in my acceptance.
"In my acceptance", there is no difference whatsoever between belief in Santa Claus and (some people's) belief in God. Go ahead, start a topic. I dare ya.
What makes you think that communing with God is in any way dysfunctional or promoting willful ignorance?
Once again, it's the reliance on "communion with God" that is "dysfunctional".
The typical Christian modus operandi is to "ask God for guidance" and "consult the scriptures" before making a decision. But in what way did that decision not come from your own mind?
If the results are good, you give God the credit. If the results are bad, you blame yourself - you weren't listening hard enough. How is that not dysfunctional?
I think that people look for too many answers in test-tubes and secular psychological paradigms...
The question is, "Do the test-tubes and psychological paradigms work?"
... instead of praying and meditating...
And how does praying and meditating work in comparison?
When your car won't start, do you pray or do you open the hood? When you have a pain, do you pray or do you go to the doctor?
There's nothing wrong with praying while looking under the hood or while on your way to the doctor - but prayer is not a substitute for practical action.
... allowing the human subconscious to intermingle in Communion with the Divine...
'Twas brillig and the slithy toves.....
... answers unobtainable through secular humanism and scientific empiricism.
Do you decide the answers are "unobtainable" before or after you try to find them?
Edited by Ringo, : "unattainable" --> "unobtainable".

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Phat, posted 05-24-2007 12:32 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by dwise1, posted 05-24-2007 3:11 PM ringo has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 51 of 95 (402118)
05-24-2007 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Phat
05-24-2007 12:32 PM


Re: She is almost human!
If you disagree with the premise that Jesus is the answer, you better have a darn good reason why you can boldly proclaim your own intellect as the answer.
That is all we have to work with Phat.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Phat, posted 05-24-2007 12:32 PM Phat has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 95 (402125)
05-24-2007 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ohnhai
05-19-2007 11:40 PM


What were the results
all I see in the link is a poll about divorce...
What were the results of the "Atheism is..." poll?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ohnhai, posted 05-19-2007 11:40 PM ohnhai has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by dwise1, posted 05-24-2007 2:55 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 54 by AdminAsgara, posted 05-24-2007 2:57 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 53 of 95 (402128)
05-24-2007 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by New Cat's Eye
05-24-2007 2:42 PM


Re: What were the results
Read on through the thread.
After about 94% of the responses agreed that atheism is the only rational outlook, they pulled the poll off the page. With no announcement that they had done it.
The divorce poll was there before along with the atheism poll. I believe that it was the previous poll.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-24-2007 2:42 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 54 of 95 (402129)
05-24-2007 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by New Cat's Eye
05-24-2007 2:42 PM


Re: What were the results

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-24-2007 2:42 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 55 of 95 (402131)
05-24-2007 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by ringo
05-24-2007 1:04 PM


Re: She is almost human!
"In my acceptance", there is no difference whatsoever between belief in Santa Claus and (some people's) belief in God. Go ahead, start a topic. I dare ya.
There was an excellent article on that very subject that was posted on our church bulletin board for a long time. I sure wish I had run a xerox of it before it was taken down (I asked, but nobody in the office could find it).
Most people's ideas of God were formed when they were children and, as they matured, they failed to go back and revised those ideas. So most people have immature and childish ideas and beliefs about God. "God as Santa Claus" or "God as Cop" or "God as Big Brother" (as in "1984") or "God as Dutch Uncle".
Since "sound bites" are being thrown around here, I'll offer one that's most commonly associated with our church:
"To question is the answer."
We need to constantly question our beliefs and our understandings. Because we are human, most of our beliefs and our understanding of things, including of our beliefs, are mistaken. Only by questioning what we think we know and understand can we detect when we're mistaken. By refusing or neglecting to question anything, we run the certain risk of holding blindly to childish beliefs which are certainly wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by ringo, posted 05-24-2007 1:04 PM ringo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by jar, posted 05-24-2007 3:19 PM dwise1 has not replied
 Message 57 by Asgara, posted 05-24-2007 3:20 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 56 of 95 (402132)
05-24-2007 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by dwise1
05-24-2007 3:11 PM


Two types of people
There are two types of people.
There are those who look for Answers to Questions.
There are those who look for Answers to Question.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by dwise1, posted 05-24-2007 3:11 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 57 of 95 (402133)
05-24-2007 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by dwise1
05-24-2007 3:11 PM


Do they really believe?
Reminds me of one of my favorite quotes...
quote:
“Those who say that they believe in God and yet neither love nor fear him, do not in fact believe in him but in those who have taught them that God exists. Those who believe that they believe in God, but without passion in their hearts, without anguish in mind, without uncertainty, without doubt, without an element of despair even in their consolation, believe only in the God idea, not God Himself”
Miguel de Unamuno
Edited by Asgara, : added to quote

This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 58 of 95 (402353)
05-25-2007 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Phat
05-24-2007 12:32 PM


Re: She is almost human!
quote:
I am personally curious why some people are so resistant to belief...as if they are afraid they will look stupid or something.
It has nothing at all to do with looking stupid.
It has everything to do with actually being stupid.
Making decisions based upon reason or evidence or thinking through the consequences for me and others seems like a good way to go.
Instead making decisions based upon "woo" or what somebody else told me "the big woo in the sky" wants me to do seems foolish and thoughtless at best and downright dangerous at worst.
It is a lot easier to not take personal responsibility for your own choices and instead "give up your life to God", but I think that's ultimately just lazy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Phat, posted 05-24-2007 12:32 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by riVeRraT, posted 05-26-2007 11:21 AM nator has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 59 of 95 (402407)
05-26-2007 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Phat
05-24-2007 12:32 PM


Re: She is almost human!
My defenses came up when I heard your assertion. I suppose that I shouldn't care what you say....IF my faith is strong, I don't have to accept being part of some mystical cult of ignorance either!
Well put, and I feel the same way.
Only one thing is clear when it comes to the gospel according to jar, and that is that nothing is ever actually totally clear.
The only impression I get from all of jar's writings on a whole is that he is conforming to the world, and being part of the world, to try and do.... what?
Of course as Christians we should all be part of the world, but in our hearts we belong to God.
I get irritated at Jar when he mocks belief statements as silly soundbites and then retorts with soundbites of his own.
This is the gospel according to jar AAAAmen... now kneel.
I disagree quite passionately! My Belief system encourages daily prayer and meditation. What makes you think that communing with God is in any way dysfunctional or promoting willful ignorance?
I think that people look for too many answers in test-tubes and secular psychological paradigms instead of praying and meditating and allowing the human subconscious to intermingle in Communion with the Divine and provide answers unobtainable through secular humanism and scientific empiricism.
w00t!
Call me stupid, but I believe that my intellect left to its own devices inevitably disintegrates into Ego, Selfishness, and self-centered versus altruistic patterning.
And that is where religion starts, well put phat, love ya man!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Phat, posted 05-24-2007 12:32 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by jar, posted 05-26-2007 12:28 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 60 of 95 (402408)
05-26-2007 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by nator
05-25-2007 10:56 PM


Re: She is almost human!
Making decisions based upon reason or evidence or thinking through the consequences for me and others seems like a good way to go.
Well it is a good thing lewis and clark, or columbus didn't think that way.
It is a lot easier to not take personal responsibility for your own choices and instead "give up your life to God", but I think that's ultimately just lazy.
This kind of thought process has been expressed many times in this forum. This is a huge mistake. At no time are we giving up our personal responsibility for our choices.
And if you are truely giving up your life to God, then things do not get lazy. things like forgiveness and helping others, or loving them, come at a cost of putting aside our own personal desires.
Intially this is hard to do, but then God makes up for it somehow, and that is where the battle ensues.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by nator, posted 05-25-2007 10:56 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-26-2007 1:12 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 63 by nator, posted 05-27-2007 10:10 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
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