Most convincing evidence for evolutionary theory

It does, however, have the benefit of not using science to make the point. With some people, theology and/or philosophy can be more straight-forward and easier to comprehend than the science behind evolution.But you are certainly right that the fundamentalists will be nearly impossible to convince of this, but tell me, do you think it would be easier in comparison to convince those people with the science?

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In a discussion with Lithodid Man, he mentioned using viral elements as a proof of evolution that creationists don't really say much about.In my viral genetics lecture yesterday, we learnt that while 3% of the human genome is open-reading frame, there is about 8% of it which are retroviral elements, some of which can be found in chimpanzees as well.So, I think this is up there for the "Most convincing evidence award". The creationists don't appear to have any real response to this, and I can't see it mentioned on AiG, the ICR etc.So what do you think? Good evidence, or is it too confusing for the creationists, or not powerful enough evidence of common descent?

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Not really the MOST CONVINCING evidence, but it is an easy one to see and read.When I get cold and get goosebumps its obvious, to me, that it is an instict that evolved from an ancestor that had denser fur than I do. It doesn't even do anything to make me warmer because my hairs are so thin and spread out. I can see how it would've worked for them, though. Why would god create goosebumps in humans if it doesn't do anything?

nit-pick: we have about the same follicles per sq in as other apes, it is not the density but the length and diameter of the hairs that is different. Look at some close-ups of chimps and you can see the skin through the hair.But I agree that goosebumps are a vestigal action that fluffs the hairs up, either to increase apparent size or for thermal regulation, and is useless behavior now.Edited by RAZD, : to finish comments ...

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no, but i'm not sure it would be any more difficult, either. you're not going to convince them of anything. not even what the bible says, by laying it right in front of them.

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I was reading in National Geographic (May 1997) about a fossil called "Turkana Boy". One part of the article states The brain, as an adult, would be about the size of a one year old human, but still twice the size of a chimps. This fossil was found in near complete state - and it is not human. More information and a photograph can be found on Wikipedia hereCreationists always seem to claim that there is no evidence; that scientists make their claims based on a bone fragment or some such. This fossil was found in 1984! The article where I read about this is ten years out of date, but once again shows me that there is evidence. Though finding a complete skeleton is rare such things have happened and scientists are not simply basing the theories on a bone fragment.I am not sure if I would use this fossil as "The most convincing evidence" - but its just another example in a long list that confirms evolution for me.

I've always been good at science but evolution never made any sense to me. They could give all these little tiny details (probably didnt mean anything anyway), but I could never get over the major flaws. Its not logical.

Heh, evolution didn't make sense to me either, and I was always good at science too. But, the major flaws aren't really that major when you look closely (or broadly, depending on the flaw).Hey, if you want, feel free to come into the chatroom (top right, where it says 'Chat') when I (or many of the other members who have posted in this thread) are in it or send me an email.I've always been good at explaining things (that's why I contribute to the EvoWiki). Perhaps I can explain evolution to you in a way that makes sense (or maybe you can teach me about these flaws - you never know...)Edited by Doddy, : spelling

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I wonder why these "major flaws" aren't evident to practicing scientists? You know, biologists, paleotologists, 72 American Nobel Prize Winners, and Louise Lamphere, President of the American Anthropological Association; Mary Pat Matheson, President of the American Assn of Botanical Gardens and Arboreta; Eugenie Scott, President of the American Association of Physical Anthropologists; Robert Milkey, Executive Officer of the American Astronomical Society; Barbara Joe Hoshiazaki, President of the American Fern Society; Oliver A. Ryder, President of the American Genetic Association; Larry Woodfork, President of the American Geological Institute; Marcia McNutt, President of the American Geophysical Union; Judith S. Weis, President of the American Institute of Biological Sciences; Arvind K.N. Nandedkar, President of the American Institute of Chemists; Robert H. Fakundiny, President of the American Institute of Professional Geologists; Hyman Bass, President of the American Mathematical Society; Ronald D. McPherson, Executive Director of the American Meteorological Society; John W. Fitzpatrick, President of the American Ornithologists' Union; George Trilling, President of the American Physical Society; Martin Frank, Executive Director of the American Physiological Society; Steven Slack, President of the American Phytopathological Society; Raymond D. Fowler, Chief Executive Officer American Psychological Association; Alan Kraut, Executive Director of the American Psychological Society; Catherine E. Rudder, Executive Director of the American Political Science Association; Robert D. Wells, President of the American Society for Biochemistry and Molecular Biology; Abigail Salyers, President of the American Society for Microbiology; Brooks Burr, President of the American Society of Ichthylogists & Herpetologists; Thomas H. Kunz, President of the American Society of Mammalogists; Mary Anne Holmes, President of the Association for Women Geoscientists; Linda H. Mantel, President of the Association for Women in Science; Ronald F. Abler, Executive Director of the Association of American Geographers; Vicki Cowart, President of the Association of American State Geologists; Nils Hasselmo, President of the Association of American Universities; Thomas A. Davis, President of the Assn. of College & University Biology Educators; Richard Jones, President of the Association of Earth Science Editors; Rex Upp, President of the Association of Engineering Geologists; Robert R. Haynes, President of the Association of Southeastern Biologists; Kenneth R. Ludwig, Director of the Berkeley Geochronology Center; Rodger Bybee, Executive Director of the Biological Sciences Curriculum Study; Mary Dicky Barkley, President of the Biophysical Society; Judy Jernstedt, President of the Botanical Society of America; Ken Atkins, Secretary of the Burlington-Edison Cmte. for Science Education; Austin Dacey, Director of the Center for Inquiry Institute; Blair F. Jones, President of the Clay Minerals Society; Barbara Forrest, President of the Citizens for the Advancement of Science Education; Timothy Moy, President of the Coalition for Excellence in Science and Math Education; K. Elaine Hoagland, National Executive Officer Council on Undergraduate Research; David A. Sleper, President of the Crop Science Society of America; Steve Culver, President of the Cushman Foundation for Foraminiferal Research; Pamela Matson, President of the Ecological Society of America; Larry L. Larson, President of the Entomological Society of America; Royce Engstrom, Chair of the Board of Directors of the EPSCoR Foundation; Robert R. Rich, President of the Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology; Stephen W. Porges, President of the Federation of Behavioral, Psychological and Cognitive Sciences; Roger D. Masters, President of the Foundation for Neuroscience and Society; Kevin S. Cummings, President of the Freshwater Mollusk Conservation Society; Sharon Mosher, President of the Geological Society of America; Dennis J. Richardson, President of the Helminthological Society of Washington; Aaron M. Bauer, President of the Herpetologists' League; William Perrotti, President of the Human Anatomy & Physiology Society; Lorna G. Moore, President of the Human Biology Association; Don Johanson, Director of the Institute of Human Origins; Harry McDonald, President of the Kansas Association of Biology Teachers; Steve Lopes, President of the Kansas Citizens For Science; Margaret W. Reynolds, Executive Director of the Linguistic Society of America; Robert T. Pennock, President of the Michigan Citizens for Science; Cornelis "Kase" Klein,President of the Mineralogical Society of America; Ann Lumsden, President of the National Association of Biology Teachers; Darryl Wilkins, President of the National Association for Black Geologists & Geophysicists; Steven C. Semken, President of the National Association of Geoscience Teachers; Kevin Padian, President of the National Center for Science Education; Tom Ervin, President of the National Earth Science Teachers Association; Gerald Wheeler, Executive Director of the National Science Teachers Association; Meredith Lane, President of the Natural Science Collections Alliance; Cathleen May, President of the Newkirk Engler & May Foundation; Dave Thomas, President of the New Mexicans for Science and Reason; Marshall Berman, President (elect) of the New Mexico Academy of Science; Connie J. Manson, President of the Northwest Geological Society; Lydia Villa-Komaroff, Vice Pres. for Research Northwestern University; Gary S. Hartshorn, President of the Organization for Tropical Studies; Warren Allmon, Director of the Paleontological Research Institution; Patricia Kelley, President of the Paleontological Society; Henry R. Owen, Director of Phi Sigma: The Biological Sciences Honor Society; Charles Yarish, President of the Phycological Society of America; Barbara J. Moore, President and CEO of Shape Up America!; Robert L. Kelly, President of the Society for American Archaeology; Richard Wilk, President of the Society for Economic Anthropology; Marvalee Wake, President of the Society for Integrative and Comparative Biology; Gilbert Strang, Past-Pres. & Science Policy Chair of the Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics; Prasanta K. Mukhopadhyay, President of the Society for Organic Petrology; Howard E. Harper, Executive Director of the Society for Sedimentary Geology; Nick Barton, President of the Society for the Study of Evolution; Deborah Sacrey, President of the Society of Independent Professional Earth Scientists; J.D. Hughes, President of the Society of Petroleum Evaluation Engineers; Lea K. Bleyman, President of the Society of Protozoologists; Elizabeth Kellogg, President of the Society of Systematic Biologists; David L. Eaton, President of the Society of Toxicology; Richard Stuckey, President of the Society of Vertebrate Paleontology; Pat White, Executive Director of the Triangle Coalition for Science and Technology Education; Richard A. Anthes, President of the University Corporation for Atmospheric Research and the Albanian Academy of Sciences; National Academy of Exact, Physical and Natural Sciences, Argentina; Australian Academy of Science; Austrian Academy of Sciences; Bangladesh Academy of Sciences; The Royal Academies for Science and the Arts of Belgium; Academy of Sciences and Arts of Bosnia and Herzegovina; Brazilian Academy of Sciences; Bulgarian Academy of Sciences; The Academies of Arts, Humanities and Sciences of Canada; Academia Chilena de Ciencias; Chinese Academy of Sciences; Academia Sinica, China, Taiwan; Colombian Academy of Exact, Physical and Natural Sciences; Croatian Academy of Arts and Sciences; Cuban Academy of Sciences; Academy of Sciences of the Czech Republic; Royal Danish Academy of Sciences and Letters; Academy of Scientific Research and Technology, Egypt; Académie des Sciences, France; Union of German Academies of Sciences and Humanities; The Academy of Athens, Greece; Hungarian Academy of Sciences; Indian National Science Academy; Indonesian Academy of Sciences; Academy of Sciences of the Islamic Republic of Iran; Royal Irish Academy; Israel Academy of Sciences and Humanities; Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei, Italy; Science Council of Japan; Kenya National Academy of Sciences; National Academy of Sciences of the Kyrgyz Republic; Latvian Academy of Sciences; Lithuanian Academy of Sciences; Macedonian Academy of Sciences and Arts; Academia Mexicana de Ciencias; Mongolian Academy of Sciences; Academy of the Kingdom of Morocco; The Royal Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences; Academy Council of the Royal Society of New Zealand; Nigerian Academy of Sciences; Pakistan Academy of Sciences; Palestine Academy for Science and Technology; Academia Nacional de Ciencias del Peru; National Academy of Science and Technology, The Philippines; Polish Academy of Sciences; Académie des Sciences et Techniques du Sénégal; Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts; Singapore National Academy of Sciences; Slovak Academy of Sciences; Slovenian Academy of Sciences and Arts; Academy of Science of South Africa; Royal Academy of Exact, Physical and Natural Sciences of Spain; National Academy of Sciences, Sri Lanka; Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences; Council of the Swiss Scientific Academies; Academy of Sciences, Republic of Tajikistan; Turkish Academy of Sciences; The Uganda National Academy of Sciences; The Royal Society, UK; US National Academy of Sciences; Uzbekistan Academy of Sciences; Academia de Ciencias Físicas, Matemáticas y Naturales de Venezuela; Zimbabwe Academy of Sciences; The Caribbean Academy of Sciences; African Academy of Sciences; The Academy of Sciences for the Developing World (TWAS); The Executive Board of the International Council for Science (ICSU).I mean, I guess they're quite good at science too. Maybe they know more about it than you do.Every scientific subject is baffling and counter-intuitive when you first look at it, that's why it's science and not just common sense. When you fully understand evolution, you understand what Dozhansky said when he said that nothing in biology makes sense without it.I have said on this thread (only half-joking) that the best argument for evolution is that no-one can think of an argument against it. If you will produce your top 5 "major flaws", I shall be happy to demonstrate this fact.Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

What major flaws?What is not logical, other than the Biblical Creationism being pandered by the Christian Cult of Ignorance?

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Maybe it wasn't explained correctly? I used to be a young-earth creationist, but when evolution was explained to me it made so much more sense than the Biblical literalism stuff that I dumped creationism.

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In the still, tranquil silence, I just heard the first cricket of summer.Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

Ever heard of a thing called hit-and-run?

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I too was a creationist although in a token way because I always smelled a rat.
Now, I think the inheritance of retroviruses and pseudo genes in the upper primates (including man) is the most graphic and compelling evidence for evolution and it takes away the need to cover vast time scales and abstract concepts such as natural selection and brings it down to a very real, very recent discovery. All evos should look at it and learn to explain it well to creos because there is no good argument for creationism in the science.Edited by PeterMc, : spelling

While much condescending and generic Creationalist bashing is evident here, even accusing them of being illiterate, the most fundamental factors have been avoided by Evolutionists in this thread. This indicates a tunnel vision, akin to a Talibanic dogma, which uses manipulative and unsustained premises to evidence their claims.Firstly, the most vital part of evidencing Evolution is not in the minute research conducted - but the conclusions derived from it. Now this path can go cyclical and use up much posts and energy, and determine nothing conclusive. An Evolutionist is NOT going to ever say, GEE SORRY, I WAS SO WRONG! Forget it - they are today more dogmatic than any religionist they ridicule, but remain in denial of it.I would get around the minute details which evolutionists love to point to - and thereby derive at runaway unconnected conclusions - by asking those questions which must be evidenced well before reaching the research stage. Here's one fulcrum issue:Q 1: Is Evolution a verified 'constant' - and is this a universal constant, or a localised one which effects only one planet?How can one discuss a phenomenon without a definitive preamble of its status!?