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Author Topic:   The God of the Bible is Evil
Jon Paine
Member (Idle past 4462 days)
Posts: 65
From: Los Angeles, California
Joined: 05-24-2007


Message 1 of 190 (402468)
05-27-2007 8:52 AM


There is a closely held belief by all Christians that the God of the Bible is Good. That is what I used to believe as a boy. I have since changed my mind. Please understand that it is not my purpose to be railing against the Creator (if he exists); rather it is my assertion that the Biblical portrayal of him is far less than complimentary. I would appreciate it if those interested in the topic enter into debate on this thread. Our discussion should not have anything to do with the accuracy and inerrancy of scripture, but rather allow for expression of opinion as to whether the actions or commands of the Lord in scripture are suitable to a Deity. I trust that you will follow along in your own Bibles to ensure the accuracy of the text. Please do not respond with Bible quotes to the effect that God is good; we are quite aware of the positive attributes of God (for those who believe in him).

So, here we go and, again, the issue is, are the actions and commands of God as given in the scriptures acts of Goodness, or as I contend, Evil?

I contend that it is Evil to kill innocents; but the Bible says:

quote:
Kill Men, Women, and Children

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

God Kills all the First Born of Egypt

And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)

Kill Old Men and Young Women

"You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)


quoting from EvilBible.com.

Replies to this message:
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Jon Paine
Member (Idle past 4462 days)
Posts: 65
From: Los Angeles, California
Joined: 05-24-2007


Message 10 of 190 (402494)
05-27-2007 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by iceage
05-27-2007 10:07 AM


quote:
There are a number of standard responses to this question.

Yep God is harsh so you better obey


This individual sounds like the Don in the mafia, just before he breaks my leg. Most ungodlike.
quote:

The people that God ordered murdered in the Bible were really very very evil people and deserved what was coming to them.
Not so. The scriptures cited in post one speak of killing only innocent men, women, and children. I would rule this a capital offense if I were on the jury. God is a serial killer?
quote:

God has the view of eternity you do not. Therefore what looks evil from your limited perspective is not from a much wider perspective.
God doesn't get to do evil just because he is broadminded, bigger, and "better" than us.

Edited by Jon Paine, : No reason given.


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Jon Paine
Member (Idle past 4462 days)
Posts: 65
From: Los Angeles, California
Joined: 05-24-2007


Message 11 of 190 (402496)
05-27-2007 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by purpledawn
05-27-2007 10:15 AM


Re: The Whole Story
What you say may well be true, that they "stories" are intended to be allegorical, not taken literally. Still this is not the kind of thing that I want to be teaching my children. If God is not good, then he is not God (if God exists).

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Replies to this message:
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Jon Paine
Member (Idle past 4462 days)
Posts: 65
From: Los Angeles, California
Joined: 05-24-2007


Message 12 of 190 (402497)
05-27-2007 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
05-27-2007 11:12 AM


God the Pied Piper - good or bad guy?
Your response is benign, quite pleasant. I have no real quarrel with it generally. But let me ask you, jar, don't you find the passages of post one to be horrific, and if God were the Pied Piper would we not string him up?

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Jon Paine
Member (Idle past 4462 days)
Posts: 65
From: Los Angeles, California
Joined: 05-24-2007


Message 14 of 190 (402501)
05-27-2007 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by jar
05-27-2007 1:18 PM


Re: God the Pied Piper - good or bad guy?
I see what you are saying with regard to the Pied Piper, and its' benefit in teaching people to honor their commitments. But what moral do we derive from the murderous passages of post one? I do not see one, and I dare say that most readers would say that these verses are a portion of the literal history of the Jewish people.

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Jon Paine
Member (Idle past 4462 days)
Posts: 65
From: Los Angeles, California
Joined: 05-24-2007


Message 17 of 190 (402511)
05-27-2007 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by purpledawn
05-27-2007 2:43 PM


Re: The Whole Story
I have no problem with the OT stories being taught as literature and fables. The problem is that your view is not the prevalent view, particularly in the USA where significant numbers of the population (particularly evangelicals )take it literally.

You can't teach your children good lessons from Aesop's Fables either if you don't understand the moral of the story....

Agreed.


...As I said, God in the OT is the god of the Israelites not the Egyptians.

Yes, that is the gist of the OT. We get into problems, ie; strife in the middle east, when a third of the world population believes it. What can be done to offset this message to let the next generation know that God (if he exists) plays no favorites?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edited by AdminPD, : Fixed quote boxes


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Jon Paine
Member (Idle past 4462 days)
Posts: 65
From: Los Angeles, California
Joined: 05-24-2007


Message 25 of 190 (402547)
05-27-2007 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Thugpreacha
05-27-2007 7:31 PM


Re: The Whole Story
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Should we attempt to limit God (as we understand Him) to what is said about Him in the Bible?

Actually, we should admit that our understanding of God is nil and the Bible is a complete fabrication. There is simply no reason to believe that there is a personal God, any more than there is reason to believe in the Roman pantheon. But this thread is not about reasoning about whether there is or is not a God; that belongs in another thread. This thread is about focusing upon what the Bible says God does or commands to be done in his name, good or bad. In the verses cited in post one, he doesn't come across as a nice fellow.


Should we tell the next generation who God is or should we allow them to ask questions and find their own idea about Him on their own?

We should teach science as fact, and teach Bible as fiction and allegory.

Edited by Jon Paine, : No reason given.

Edited by Jon Paine, : spelling and added phrase


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan

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Jon Paine
Member (Idle past 4462 days)
Posts: 65
From: Los Angeles, California
Joined: 05-24-2007


Message 34 of 190 (402579)
05-28-2007 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by ICANT
05-27-2007 11:41 PM


Could God's word be a fabrication?
the Bible is a complete fabrication.

That is a very strong statement, care to back it up with facts?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can back it up with scripture:

quote:
1 Kings 22:23
Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

2 Chronicles 18:22
Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.

Jeremiah 4:10
Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people.

Ezek 20:25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;


OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
Take comments to the Moderation Thread.
AdminPD

Edited by Jon Paine, : chg subtitle

Edited by Jon Paine, : correct last verse

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


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Jon Paine
Member (Idle past 4462 days)
Posts: 65
From: Los Angeles, California
Joined: 05-24-2007


Message 36 of 190 (402614)
05-28-2007 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by purpledawn
05-28-2007 3:43 PM


Human sacrifice even by God is Evil
The issue is whether God is evil. Other than the verses in the first post, you haven't done any more to support your position that God is evil.

...................................
Yes, let's move on to one of the most horrific stories in the Bible, God's command to Abraham to murder his son:
....................................
quote:

Genesis 22 (Skeptics Annotated Bible)

22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
22:3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.
22:4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.
22:5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.
22:6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
22:9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.
22:10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. "Now I know that thou fearest God."


Now here's a story that will put the fear of God into your kids. I do not know if you believe this to be historical or allegorical, but by today's standard, to command a father to kill his child is to be complicit in murder (or in this case attempted murder). A parent willing to kill his/her children when he hears a voice in his head (or audible) has not considered all available options. A parent under these circumstance, hearing voices, could for instance check himself into the Sanitarium, where he cannot hurt himself or others. For my own part, I would sooner take my own life, even risk hellfire, than sacrifice my children, as I am sure most of you would. Wait, on second thought I will have to retract that; Christians are so used to nodding their heads when they hear this story that I dare say some might even consider it. This is an important family values issue. May I put it to you, purpledawn? Would you sacrifice your child in Abraham's circumstance?

Edited by Jon Paine, : add phrase


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Jon Paine
Member (Idle past 4462 days)
Posts: 65
From: Los Angeles, California
Joined: 05-24-2007


Message 39 of 190 (402635)
05-29-2007 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Jon
05-29-2007 12:50 AM


You didn't answer my question...
J. Paine writes:
quote:
If God is not good, then he is not God (if God exists).

Who are you to judge the goodness of God?

Jon, the question is off topic. The thread is about whether the God as presented in the Bible is Evil.

....................................

... by today's standard, to command a father to kill his child is to be complicit in murder (or in this case attempted murder). A parent willing to kill his/her children when he hears a voice in his head (or audible) has not considered all available options. A parent under these circumstance, hearing voices, could for instance check himself into the Sanitarium, where he cannot hurt himself or others. For my own part, I would sooner take my own life, even risk hellfire, than sacrifice my children, as I am sure most of you would. Wait, on second thought I will have to retract that; Christians are so used to nodding their heads when they hear this story that I dare say some might even consider it. This is an important family values issue. May I put it to you, purpledawn? Would you sacrifice your child in Abraham's circumstance?

And purpledawn, you didn't answer the question, would you sacrifice your child in Abraham's circumstance or would you agree that such a command from anybody (even God) to do so is Evil.

Edited by Jon Paine, : Let's stay on Topic

Edited by Jon Paine, : fix a quote


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Jon Paine
Member (Idle past 4462 days)
Posts: 65
From: Los Angeles, California
Joined: 05-24-2007


Message 110 of 190 (402812)
05-30-2007 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by iceage
05-29-2007 11:51 PM


Suggestion for keeping this thread on track:
Suggestion by OP originator for keeping this thread on track:

Extract from OP:

Our discussion should... allow for expression of opinion as to whether the actions or commands of the Lord in scripture are suitable to a Deity.
... again, the issue is, are the actions and commands of God as given in the scriptures acts of Goodness, or as I contend, Evil?

What I had in mind in making the OP proposal was consideration of God's acts within the context of present day mores. Conflict has arisen that is concisely expressed by by iceage as follows:

... "Goodness" as taught and implied in the NT is in direct conflict with the messages and stories in the OT.

The issue seems to be of defining evil then and now. My proposal is this:
When a scripture and verse is given as a would be example of the deity's unfairness (evil), let us all consider the malifaction in the context of modern day accepted mores, civil laws, NT ethics and/or the Golden Rule. Only then, let the morality of the issue be considered in light of the "ancient" mores, traditions, and customs.

In so doing, we will stay on track while insuring that all points of view can be heard in their turn.

Edited by Jon Paine, : add quotes

Edited by Jon Paine, : typo


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Jon Paine
Member (Idle past 4462 days)
Posts: 65
From: Los Angeles, California
Joined: 05-24-2007


Message 114 of 190 (402829)
05-30-2007 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by purpledawn
05-30-2007 7:41 AM


Can we do this in future?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can we do this in future?
(I think Admin will bless.}

When a scripture and verse is given as a would be example of the deity's unfairness (Evil?}, let us all consider the malifaction in the context of modern day accepted mores, civil laws, NT ethics and/or the Golden Rule. Only then, let the morality of the issue be considered in light of the "ancient" mores, traditions, and customs.
............................................

Quote purpledawn:


Now I see the conflict. The verses you shared in the OP are on a national level. Your criteria for judgment is on the individual level...

Not a problem; modern western culture's civil law, NT ethics and/or the Golden Rule. Then, let the morality of the issue be considered in light of the "ancient" mores, traditions, and customs.


... The NT doesn't deal with warring nations. Jesus was teaching the individual. I don't recall Jesus implying that soldiers should stop being soldiers...
Well, purpledawn, in such a case we can still discuss it in light of modern western culture's civil law, NT ethics and/or the Golden Rule. Then, let the morality of the issue be considered in light of the "ancient" mores, traditions, and customs. The discussion would be benefitial in any case. I happen to think that a Prophet of God leading a Nation to war upon innocents even when the land is "promised" is wrong anyway, but we can debate that.

...
If your beef is with Christian teachings of today and you feel they are using the wrong verses to teach of God's supposed goodness and glossing over the harshness of the past, then address the error of those teachings.

Not necessary. Discussion of modern western culture's civil law on the issue, as well as NT ethics and the Golden Rule will cover that.


IMO, when it comes to war, everyone would qualify as evil.

I agree, but there are some who undoubtedly wish to justify it, and it is worth the discussion within the above parameters.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edited by Jon Paine, : quote

Edited by Jon Paine, : No reason given.

Edited by Jon Paine, : No reason given.

Edited by Jon Paine, : quotes again

Edited by Jon Paine, : Message Subtitle

Edited by Jon Paine, : Ah, perfection!


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Jon Paine
Member (Idle past 4462 days)
Posts: 65
From: Los Angeles, California
Joined: 05-24-2007


Message 123 of 190 (402883)
05-30-2007 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by jar
05-30-2007 10:50 AM


Let's Stay the Course for this Thread Please:
Let us stay with the issue for this thread as I have recommended please.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You can certainly do that but it seems a pretty pointless exercise. As I have pointed out numerous times in this thread, the Bible is not one story but a collection of stories, stories written by different people, different cultures with different purposes.

It might well be productive if you change the focus of the thread as reflected in the topic title, to reflect question of whether or not there is ONE consistent God of the Bible or whether the Bible should be considered, as shown in the Code of Westminster Seminary (a Presbyterian reformed seminary) and some other Christian Sects as

Scripture, as the "very Word of God written," is absolutely authoritative and without error.

The reason that there is a need to continue with my suggested methodology is that, unlike your view on this (which I respect) you are the minority when we consider the population of the United States. According to the reference that follows, one of three Americans believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible.

27615_Poll:_1_of_3_Americans_Say_Bible_Should_be_Taken_Literally

The implications of this is seen in decisions within American politics over the last decade, with Evangelicals putting the one party in office based on religious grounds, the President electing to go to war in Iraq because "God told him to", and frightfully we were witness to a show of hands at the recent Republican debate in May, where an amazing four of the nine contenders for the White House believe the literal Creation story of Genesis. I believe it needs to be pointed out to reasonable people that your viewpoint for instance (and dare I say even mine) is more reasonable than the the hardcore literal view that gets our leaders and the general population in so much trouble when we make moral judgements. I believe therefore that there are many here who find this kind of discussion refreshing, particularly since it is so very rarely done.

Edited by Jon Paine, : change phrase

Edited by Admin, : Shorten link.


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan

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Jon Paine
Member (Idle past 4462 days)
Posts: 65
From: Los Angeles, California
Joined: 05-24-2007


Message 126 of 190 (402888)
05-30-2007 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by jar
05-30-2007 2:49 PM


Re: Let's Stay the Course for this Thread Please:
I rarely rant. I would, however, like to participate in an exercise in alternative thought. My insights may represent a minority view, but I am willing to listen to yours if you will listen to mine. Can't we look from time to time at the Bible from a vantage point that is infrequently addressed. Many of these stories are troublesome even as fictional tribal tales, and more so when accepted as God's literal truth. I don't want my children to live in a culture that mimics the prophets of old, rejects science and is disdainful of alternative ethics by well meaning, thoughtful, morally responsible people.


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan

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 Message 124 by jar, posted 05-30-2007 2:49 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Jon Paine
Member (Idle past 4462 days)
Posts: 65
From: Los Angeles, California
Joined: 05-24-2007


Message 129 of 190 (402936)
05-30-2007 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by anastasia
05-30-2007 5:44 PM


Re: Let's Stay the Course for this Thread Please:
... Some people like PurpleDawn may go further than the average interpretation and weigh in such things as authorship, time period, local customs.

The only thing that jar is doing is making a responsible interpretation based on what the Bible actually says. Reading the whole story and then making a judgement is not in any way incompatible with belief in the Word of God ....

Actually, I would like to continue to talk about all of the above. I am not disagreeing with those that say the literal interpretation of the Bible is mistaken. And from what I have seen already on this thread, there are many including jar and PurpleDawn who can better explain why the literal interpretation is faulty. I would value that discussion.

On a personal note, although I am an atheist, I am not asserting that the God that you hold dear is Evil. I am not an absolute atheist, not a militant atheist. My parents and siblings are all fundamentalist Christians. I love Christians. I still think there could be a Creator, may even be a theistic personal God. I don't hold these views at present. What I am asserting is that the God as depicted cannot be a realistic model by modern standards. Why not help me to make that case, won't you. I think that many will benefit.

Edited by Jon Paine, : I messed up


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