The God of the Bible is Evil

Your final sentence is my point. We do give values on everything from good to evil. It has nothing to do with god or satan. It's free will. It is us. We are 'it.' The creators of everything through the mass consciousness. Keep smiling.

It does seem common sense to have a first cause. We cannot imagine no beginning and no end, but if we are going to believe in one god, then for god's sake let's agree to believe in a loving creator who loves us all equally in the here and right now.

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Ok, before we go on, are we talking about the god of the bible and that this god exists or are we talking about the god of the bible and that this god is fictional?

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It is about the portrayal of God in the Bible. It doesn't matter whether you feel God exists or not or whether God does exist or not. Just because God exists, doesn't mean the story can't be fictional or parts of it fictional.There are fictional stories depicting real places and real people, but the events didn't take place as told in the story and the real people didn't actual speak the words attributed to them in the story.Based on the theories of Richard Elliott Friedman in his book "Who Wrote the Bible?" concerning the Documentary Hypothesis, the Exodus story we have in front of us had several authors.The J (Judah) author didn't get into the plagues. They seemed more concerned with wilderness. Then again the redactor may have cut out their contribution to the events in Egypt. This author speaks of wonders and bringing the people into favor. Hard to do after all the plagues and killing the first born.The E (Israel) author gave us the plagues except for the boils. The boils supposedly came from the P (Priestly) author.The sacrifice of the firstborn to God is based on the killing of the Egyptian firstborn. (Written by E) So in the context of the story and the age it was written, is God really evil?In our stories and movies today, it would be bad form to have the hero killing innocent children. Apparently in the age of the these storytellers it wasn't.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------I can back it up with scripture:

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1 Kings 22:23
Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

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2 Chronicles 18:22
Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.

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Jeremiah 4:10
Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people.

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Ezek 20:25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;

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Edited by Jon Paine, : chg subtitleEdited by Jon Paine, : correct last verseEdited by AdminPD, : Warning

As you said in Message 25 the existance of God is not the issue in this thread, neither is whether the Bible is fabricated.The issue is whether God is evil. Other than the verses in the first post, you haven't done any more to support your position that God is evil.As shown; one verse concerns a vision, not reality. The Exodus depends on the viewpoint and the prophecy was pretty much trashtalk.Why does a symbolic vision make you see God as evil?
Why does God saving his chosen people from abuse make you see God as evil?
Why does a prophecy worded to warn and/or scare, but apparently didn't happen, make you see God as evil?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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Yes, let's move on to one of the most horrific stories in the Bible, God's command to Abraham to murder his son:
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Genesis 22 (Skeptics Annotated Bible)

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22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
22:3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.
22:4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.
22:5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.
22:6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
22:9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.
22:10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. "Now I know that thou fearest God."

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Now here's a story that will put the fear of God into your kids. I do not know if you believe this to be historical or allegorical, but by today's standard, to command a father to kill his child is to be complicit in murder (or in this case attempted murder). A parent willing to kill his/her children when he hears a voice in his head (or audible) has not considered all available options. A parent under these circumstance, hearing voices, could for instance check himself into the Sanitarium, where he cannot hurt himself or others. For my own part, I would sooner take my own life, even risk hellfire, than sacrifice my children, as I am sure most of you would. Wait, on second thought I will have to retract that; Christians are so used to nodding their heads when they hear this story that I dare say some might even consider it. This is an important family values issue. May I put it to you, purpledawn? Would you sacrifice your child in Abraham's circumstance? Edited by Jon Paine, : add phrase

In context of the story and the age it was written, I guess god was not evil. But if we want to use this same line of logic, we'd have to say that in context of the time and place, Hitler was not evil. In context of the time and place, the killing of every living soul in the City of Jerusalem in the first crusade was not evil. In context of the time and place, slavery in the US was not evil. In context of of the time and place, the violent acts of the KKK upon the black people of the south were not evil. You know, I could go on and on using your line of logic. To be fair, would you agree that according to our standard in this time and age, the god of the bible is evil?

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We are BOG. Resistance is voltage over current.

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Disclaimer:

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Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

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He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

Who are you to judge the goodness of God?Jon Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

J. Paine writes:

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If God is not good, then he is not God (if God exists).

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Jon, the question is off topic. The thread is about whether the God as presented in the Bible is Evil..................................... And purpledawn, you didn't answer the question, would you sacrifice your child in Abraham's circumstance or would you agree that such a command from anybody (even God) to do so is Evil.Edited by Jon Paine, : Let's stay on TopicEdited by Jon Paine, : fix a quote

purpledawn asks:

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So in the context of the story and the age it was written, is God really evil?

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Of course he is. He's supposed to be all-knowing, right? So he would know that killing innocent children is evil. The context is irrelevant.Once everyone realizes that the bible is nothing but a collection of ancient fairy stories, written by barely civilized tribal nomads who didn't even know enough to keep their exrement away from their food (since God apparently was too busy killing innocents to point that out to them) then perhaps we can get beyond these silly questions about whether or not the King of all the fairies is evil.

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W.W.E.D.?

This is entirely on topic. If you are in no place to judge God, then there is no way you can ever prove Him to be evil. If you cannot do that, then the point made in this thread is completely empty.So, tell me, who are you, measly puny Jon Paine, to judge the Almighty Father of Creation? Show that you are worthy to debate on God's level, and then you might have a point.Jon Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

Quite stern preaching for an agnostic! Lets be careful of our emphasis and don't make poor Mr. Paine feel as if he has entered the very chambers of justice! Remember Rule 10: Always treat other members with respect. Forum Guidelines

Perhaps the question could be better rephrased.

Are the words attributed to God in the Bible actually Gods words? If not, could it be the human authors of the Bible who are attempting to use God to justify the plot twists in their stories?

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What is a working definition of evil? I would define evil as doing anything outside of the will of God, as we understand Him.

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Lets examine some of the O.T. and put it into a modern context.

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What if some ancient historian were teleported to the current century. Furiously chiseling his observations on a stone tablet, perhaps our ancient reporter would record something such as this:

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And it came to pass that on the eleventh day of the ninth month, the holy martyrs from the kingdom of Egypt captured several of the Great Winged Chariots and rode them through the air and they crashed into the Giant Twin Towers of the Amerikites.
And God spoke to King Bush The Lesser and commanded him to go forth and find the great leader of the Egyptian Martyrs from the kingdom of Arabia.

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And it came to pass that a mighty Army was gathered and sailed forth from the shores of America and the Amerikites were of one mind and heart, for they feared for the safety of their kingdom.

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And Bin Laden, who was the leader of the Martyrs, had journeyed to the land of the Afghan Kingdoms. The people saw his stature and they understood the wrath that the Amerikites had for him, and thus they hid him in the caves of Tora Bora and when the Amerikites rained brimstone down upon him as God had commanded them to do, the Martyrs escaped by night into the land of Pakistan. And Bin Laden was of great height he stood a full 7 cubits high!

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Wherever he went, the people hid him, for they knew that he had stirred up the false gods of the Amerikites and that the Amerikites worshiped created things.

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But King Bush was convinced that he heard from the true God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He told his advisers that it was the people of the moon god that were the true idolators, for surely they wanted to crush the blessings that Jehovah had bestowed upon the Amerikites.

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Meanwhile, the King of Babylon, whose name was Saddam, helped the martyrs and the noble cause of Bin Laden, for he hated the Amerikites and the famines that they had caused his people. He feared no gods except his own advisers, and he purged the men who got too close to his throne.

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The point of my contrived story, written by our scribe teleported back in time, was that each culture had a view of the God that they worshiped.

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Whether any of these gods actually exist is never going to be proven or disproved since God is part of each individual cultural and personal belief.

And Harry Truman was evil because he ordered bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Japan.
The Hasmoneans were evil because they forced people to convert to Judaism with threat of death or exile.Do we assume that good people are not capable of bad actions?What I see is that when people, cultures, or nations clash violence happens.As I asked before, in a war who is evil? The one who wins or the one who loses. I'm sure both sides can justify their actions.

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To be fair, would you agree that according to our standard in this time and age, the god of the bible is evil?

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No. I agree that the actions on both sides were "evil", but like I showed above, that doesn't make the person or god evil. In this day and age, we separate the action from the person or at least we are supposed to.Can we show that the God of the Bible had no good intentions whatsoever?
Can we show that the God of the Bible enjoyed the suffering of the opposition?Now if people want to go with the typical knee jerk reaction that anything we don't like or don't understand is evil, then there's nothing I can say or do to counter that viewpoint.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Since I go to bed at 9pm and your Message 36 was posted on 5/28 at 10:17pm my time and your comment to me in Message 39was posted at 5/29 at 2:35am my time, I was sleeping. I haven't gotten to the point of answering in my sleep yet.People have lives away from the keyboard and encompass many time zones, so instant responses are not expected. Give people time to respond.Also commenting to me in a response to someone else lessens the chances of my seeing the comment.Since this post does not address the topic, I do not expect a response to this post from you or anyone else.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz