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Member (Idle past 5187 days) Posts: 649 From: Melbourne, Australia Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Christianity Today: Atheism is the only rational outlook. | |||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 419 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Well put, and I feel the same way. Only one thing is clear when it comes to the gospel according to jar, and that is that nothing is ever actually totally clear. Damn straight. We never have full information. We do NOT know everything and so few things really can be clear. Sorry but we make decisions based on available information. That is all we have available to use.
The only impression I get from all of jar's writings on a whole is that he is conforming to the world, and being part of the world, to try and do.... what? Do what? Try to do the best you can, try to honestly evaluate what you have done, acknowledge when you have done wrong, try to make amends and try to do better in the future. It really is that simple.
Of course as Christians we should all be part of the world, but in our hearts we belong to God. Yada, yada. What does that mean?
Phat writes: Call me stupid, but I believe that my intellect left to its own devices inevitably disintegrates into Ego, Selfishness, and self-centered versus altruistic patterning. to which rR replied:
quote: Sorry rR but exactly does one do "altruistic patterning" (whatever the hell that means) without using their own intellect? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 309 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Making decisions based upon reason or evidence or thinking through the consequences for me and others seems like a good way to go. Well it is a good thing lewis and clark, or columbus didn't think that way. But in fact they did. And if Columbus' sole contribution to geographical knowledge was sitting on his arse in Genoa taking the western route to China on faith, instead of actually sailing west looking for evidence for it (and finding America instead) then this post would read: "Columbus who?" Similarly Lewis and Clark went looking for evidence about the course of the Missouri river --- they didn't make up stories about an imaginary magic river they'd never seen and then go around explaining that anyone who didn't believe in the magic river would be tortured for all eternity by naiads.
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nator Member (Idle past 2195 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Making decisions based upon reason or evidence or thinking through the consequences for me and others seems like a good way to go. quote: Huh? All of them used evidence and reason to achieve what they did.
It is a lot easier to not take personal responsibility for your own choices and instead "give up your life to God", but I think that's ultimately just lazy. quote: In a way you do, though, when you abandon reason and logic and evidence in favor of "woo" or what somebody told you the "big woo in the sky" says he wants you to do or be like. If you really took reponsibility for you actions, you wouldn't let these things get in the way of logic and reason and evidence.
quote: That is not the kind of "lazy" I was referring to. I am talking about "lazy thinking". By this, I mean things like not being able to follow through to the logical consequences of claims, not being able to discern when claims are contradictory; in general, not being able to think critically or ask appropriate questions before granting tentative assent to a claim.
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nator Member (Idle past 2195 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: You are setting up this dichotomy unfairly. "Jesus is the answer" is not the default position. The default position is that "we have an intellect", imperfect as it may be. Nobody denies that we have an intellect, so it is actually the people who boldly say "Jesus/Mohammed/Buddha/L. Ron Hubbard is the answer" who need to justify their position.
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
OK. Maybe a better approach would be to ask the question of whether Jesus (and Belief in general) are as good of a subject to question as
the default position of we know nothing....lets attempt to find our own answer Some people feel comfortable with positive truth claims as answers. Other people are never satisfied with any answer.
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nator Member (Idle past 2195 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: That's also what religions do, except they don't need to bother with reality when coming up with those answers.
quote: Since when does people's comfort level with something determine if it is true or not?
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ringo Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes: Other people are never satisfied with any answer. Being satisfied with an answer implies that one has the perfect answer, there is nothing left to learn. Is that really what you mean when you say, "Jesus is the answer"? Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8546 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
These appeared in the same post by the same author. I went through the rest of the thread looking to see if anyone else noticed the disconnect here.
I think that people look for too many answers in test-tubes and secular psychological paradigms instead of praying and meditating and allowing the human subconscious to intermingle in Communion with the Divine and provide answers unobtainable through secular humanism and scientific empiricism. So, looking inside is the answer? Outside-reality means nothing?
Call me stupid, but I believe that my intellect left to its own devices inevitably disintegrates into Ego, Selfishness, and self-centered versus altruistic patterning. Now we know why this “personal god” is the way he is.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
That's right, every explorer knew where they were going before they left.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
Huh? All of them used evidence and reason to achieve what they did. Same could be said when searching for God, and answers. What do you think, anyone who believes in God is a dummy, and does so without any evidence, and reason?
In a way you do, though, when you abandon reason and logic and evidence in favor of "woo" or what somebody told you the "big woo in the sky" says he wants you to do or be like. If a big woo in the sky told me to do something, other than what was already in heart, I would tell him to go fuck himself.
If you really took reponsibility for you actions, you wouldn't let these things get in the way of logic and reason and evidence. huh? evidence of what?
By this, I mean things like not being able to follow through to the logical consequences of claims, not being able to discern when claims are contradictory; in general, not being able to think critically or ask appropriate questions before granting tentative assent to a claim. Well, I would like to think that doesn't apply to me. Please go read my evidence and faith thread.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
That's a pretty funny reply.
First you write:Damn straight. We never have full information. We do NOT know everything and so few things really can be clear. Sorry but we make decisions based on available information. That is all we have available to use. Then:Do what? Try to do the best you can, try to honestly evaluate what you have done, acknowledge when you have done wrong, try to make amends and try to do better in the future. It really is that simple. But I got to tell you, Probably most if not all religions were started on that premise. So now what? The impression I get from jar's house of religion is that we should all just love each other (which is not bad) and then make up what God is, which could be very dangerous.
Yada, yada. What does that mean? If you have to ask, then you don't know. It then becomes clear to me, that you have not yet experienced the Holy Spirit. You wanna know something jar? If you are attacking Christians, you still are attacking people. Maybe you won't get to experience the Holy Spirit, until you stop.
Sorry rR but exactly does one do "altruistic patterning" (whatever the hell that means) without using their own intellect? When God comes to you, and tells you about yourself, and Himself.
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jar Member (Idle past 419 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
If you have to ask, then you don't know. It then becomes clear to me, that you have not yet experienced the Holy Spirit. And how do you know it is the Holy Spirit?
When God comes to you, and tells you about yourself, and Himself. And how do you know it is God? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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nator Member (Idle past 2195 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Huh? All of them used evidence and reason to achieve what they did. quote: Sure. However, you can't find God using evidence and reason. You can only find God through faith.
quote: Not using evidence and reason doesn't make someone a dummy. It means they aren't using evidence and reason. It's sort of like people not knowing how to use calculus. Both advanced math (like calculus) and the use of evidence and reason (the scientific method) to evaluate claims of fact/reality are simply tools. I don't know how to use calculus. I don't know how to use lots of different tools. That doesn't make me a dummy, it just makes me ignorant of how to use many different tools. The problem is, though, that being able to use logic and reason is paramount to being able to make good decisions in our lives in this technologically-advanced, information-age society we currently live in. Most Americans don't know the first thing about using the tool of critical thinking because they've never been taught. You can be damn sure that the more radical religious elements in this country want to keep such tools as far away from their followers as they possibly can. Even the moderate Catholic Church has always had a lukewarm relationship with scientific thinking.
You abandon reason and logic and evidence in favor of "woo" or what somebody told you the "big woo in the sky" says he wants you to do or be like. quote: You would tell God to go fuck himself?
If you really took reponsibility for you actions, you wouldn't let these things get in the way of logic and reason and evidence. quote: If you really took responsibility for your actions, you wouldn't let what somebody told you God wants you to believe or do (or what you think the Bible, or God, wants you believe or do to) get in the way of what reason and logic and evidence are showing you, or could show you if you looked. You wouldn't let your irrational beliefs (faith) override or supplant reason and logic and evidence (or lack thereof).
By this, I mean things like not being able to follow through to the logical consequences of claims, not being able to discern when claims are contradictory; in general, not being able to think critically or ask appropriate questions before granting tentative assent to a claim. quote: I'd say that in my experience, you are just as guilty of such lapses as the next religious person.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
And how do you know it is the Holy Spirit? And how do you know it is God? By reading the bible, and constantly testing what I feel. The bible may contain a lot of stories, but it is useful for discerning the Holy Spirit. It is subjective jar. You know that you know. I know, and you don't, it is for me, and not you. I can't prove it to you, unless you were over here with me, then I may start to show you, and share with you, what I know.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
Sure. However, you can't find God using evidence and reason. You can only find God through faith. Well, God finds you. But then there is evidence of that, all be it subjective, and maybe even objective.
Most Americans don't know the first thing about using the tool of critical thinking because they've never been taught. You can be damn sure that the more radical religious elements in this country want to keep such tools as far away from their followers as they possibly can. Even the moderate Catholic Church has always had a lukewarm relationship with scientific thinking. It is my quest to find a happy medium.
You would tell God to go fuck himself? If I didn't like what He was saying.He would have to show me, why He was right, and why I was wrong. If you really took responsibility for your actions, you wouldn't let what somebody told you God wants you to believe or do (or what you think the Bible, or God, wants you believe or do to) get in the way of what reason and logic and evidence are showing you, or could show you if you looked. No I wouldn't. I believe logic and reason are from God too.
I'd say that in my experience, you are just as guilty of such lapses as the next religious person. That just may be you not being able to follow through to the logical consequences of claims, not being able to discern when claims are contradictory; in general, not being able to think critically or ask appropriate questions before granting tentative assent to a claim. Instead of actually know who I am, and where I am coming from.
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