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Author Topic:   Christianity Today: Atheism is the only rational outlook.
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 61 of 95 (402412)
05-26-2007 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by riVeRraT
05-26-2007 11:15 AM


Well, since you guys insist on telling folk what I think...
Well put, and I feel the same way.
Only one thing is clear when it comes to the gospel according to jar, and that is that nothing is ever actually totally clear.
Damn straight. We never have full information. We do NOT know everything and so few things really can be clear. Sorry but we make decisions based on available information.
That is all we have available to use.
The only impression I get from all of jar's writings on a whole is that he is conforming to the world, and being part of the world, to try and do.... what?
Do what?
Try to do the best you can, try to honestly evaluate what you have done, acknowledge when you have done wrong, try to make amends and try to do better in the future.
It really is that simple.
Of course as Christians we should all be part of the world, but in our hearts we belong to God.
Yada, yada. What does that mean?
Phat writes:
Call me stupid, but I believe that my intellect left to its own devices inevitably disintegrates into Ego, Selfishness, and self-centered versus altruistic patterning.
to which rR replied:
quote:
And that is where religion starts, well put phat, love ya man!
Sorry rR but exactly does one do "altruistic patterning" (whatever the hell that means) without using their own intellect?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by riVeRraT, posted 05-26-2007 11:15 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by riVeRraT, posted 05-28-2007 8:31 PM jar has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 62 of 95 (402413)
05-26-2007 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by riVeRraT
05-26-2007 11:21 AM


Columbus, Lewis And Clark
Making decisions based upon reason or evidence or thinking through the consequences for me and others seems like a good way to go.
Well it is a good thing lewis and clark, or columbus didn't think that way.
But in fact they did. And if Columbus' sole contribution to geographical knowledge was sitting on his arse in Genoa taking the western route to China on faith, instead of actually sailing west looking for evidence for it (and finding America instead) then this post would read: "Columbus who?"
Similarly Lewis and Clark went looking for evidence about the course of the Missouri river --- they didn't make up stories about an imaginary magic river they'd never seen and then go around explaining that anyone who didn't believe in the magic river would be tortured for all eternity by naiads.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by riVeRraT, posted 05-26-2007 11:21 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by riVeRraT, posted 05-28-2007 8:15 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 63 of 95 (402474)
05-27-2007 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by riVeRraT
05-26-2007 11:21 AM


Re: She is almost human!
Making decisions based upon reason or evidence or thinking through the consequences for me and others seems like a good way to go.
quote:
Well it is a good thing lewis and clark, or columbus didn't think that way.
Huh? All of them used evidence and reason to achieve what they did.
It is a lot easier to not take personal responsibility for your own choices and instead "give up your life to God", but I think that's ultimately just lazy.
quote:
This kind of thought process has been expressed many times in this forum. This is a huge mistake. At no time are we giving up our personal responsibility for our choices.
In a way you do, though, when you abandon reason and logic and evidence in favor of "woo" or what somebody told you the "big woo in the sky" says he wants you to do or be like.
If you really took reponsibility for you actions, you wouldn't let these things get in the way of logic and reason and evidence.
quote:
And if you are truely giving up your life to God, then things do not get lazy. things like forgiveness and helping others, or loving them, come at a cost of putting aside our own personal desires.
That is not the kind of "lazy" I was referring to.
I am talking about "lazy thinking".
By this, I mean things like not being able to follow through to the logical consequences of claims, not being able to discern when claims are contradictory; in general, not being able to think critically or ask appropriate questions before granting tentative assent to a claim.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by riVeRraT, posted 05-26-2007 11:21 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by riVeRraT, posted 05-28-2007 8:19 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 64 of 95 (402476)
05-27-2007 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Phat
05-24-2007 12:32 PM


Re: She is almost human!
quote:
If you disagree with the premise that Jesus is the answer, you better have a darn good reason why you can boldly proclaim your own intellect as the answer. Call me stupid, but I believe that my intellect left to its own devices inevitably disintegrates into Ego, Selfishness, and self-centered versus altruistic patterning.
You are setting up this dichotomy unfairly.
"Jesus is the answer" is not the default position.
The default position is that "we have an intellect", imperfect as it may be.
Nobody denies that we have an intellect, so it is actually the people who boldly say "Jesus/Mohammed/Buddha/L. Ron Hubbard is the answer" who need to justify their position.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Phat, posted 05-24-2007 12:32 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 05-27-2007 7:56 PM nator has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 65 of 95 (402528)
05-27-2007 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by nator
05-27-2007 10:18 AM


Rational Conclusions or Easy Answers?
OK. Maybe a better approach would be to ask the question of whether Jesus (and Belief in general) are as good of a subject to question as
the default position of we know nothing....lets attempt to find our own answer
Some people feel comfortable with positive truth claims as answers.
Other people are never satisfied with any answer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by nator, posted 05-27-2007 10:18 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by nator, posted 05-28-2007 2:22 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 67 by ringo, posted 05-28-2007 2:50 PM Phat has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 66 of 95 (402583)
05-28-2007 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Phat
05-27-2007 7:56 PM


Re: Rational Conclusions or Easy Answers?
quote:
the default position of we know nothing....lets attempt to find our own answer
That's also what religions do, except they don't need to bother with reality when coming up with those answers.
quote:
Some people feel comfortable with positive truth claims as answers.
Other people are never satisfied with any answer.
Since when does people's comfort level with something determine if it is true or not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 05-27-2007 7:56 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 67 of 95 (402584)
05-28-2007 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Phat
05-27-2007 7:56 PM


Re: Rational Conclusions or Easy Answers?
Phat writes:
Other people are never satisfied with any answer.
Being satisfied with an answer implies that one has the perfect answer, there is nothing left to learn. Is that really what you mean when you say, "Jesus is the answer"?

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 05-27-2007 7:56 PM Phat has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 68 of 95 (402592)
05-28-2007 5:42 PM


Cannot Let It Pass
These appeared in the same post by the same author. I went through the rest of the thread looking to see if anyone else noticed the disconnect here.
I think that people look for too many answers in test-tubes and secular psychological paradigms instead of praying and meditating and allowing the human subconscious to intermingle in Communion with the Divine and provide answers unobtainable through secular humanism and scientific empiricism.
So, looking inside is the answer? Outside-reality means nothing?
Call me stupid, but I believe that my intellect left to its own devices inevitably disintegrates into Ego, Selfishness, and self-centered versus altruistic patterning.
Now we know why this “personal god” is the way he is.

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 69 of 95 (402598)
05-28-2007 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Dr Adequate
05-26-2007 1:12 PM


Re: Columbus, Lewis And Clark
That's right, every explorer knew where they were going before they left.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-26-2007 1:12 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-29-2007 11:16 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 70 of 95 (402599)
05-28-2007 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by nator
05-27-2007 10:10 AM


Re: She is almost human!
Huh? All of them used evidence and reason to achieve what they did.
Same could be said when searching for God, and answers.
What do you think, anyone who believes in God is a dummy, and does so without any evidence, and reason?
In a way you do, though, when you abandon reason and logic and evidence in favor of "woo" or what somebody told you the "big woo in the sky" says he wants you to do or be like.
If a big woo in the sky told me to do something, other than what was already in heart, I would tell him to go fuck himself.
If you really took reponsibility for you actions, you wouldn't let these things get in the way of logic and reason and evidence.
huh?
evidence of what?
By this, I mean things like not being able to follow through to the logical consequences of claims, not being able to discern when claims are contradictory; in general, not being able to think critically or ask appropriate questions before granting tentative assent to a claim.
Well, I would like to think that doesn't apply to me. Please go read my evidence and faith thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by nator, posted 05-27-2007 10:10 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by nator, posted 05-28-2007 9:31 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 77 by ringo, posted 05-29-2007 10:57 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 71 of 95 (402601)
05-28-2007 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by jar
05-26-2007 12:28 PM


Re: Well, since you guys insist on telling folk what I think...
That's a pretty funny reply.
First you write:
Damn straight. We never have full information. We do NOT know everything and so few things really can be clear. Sorry but we make decisions based on available information.
That is all we have available to use.
Then:
Do what?
Try to do the best you can, try to honestly evaluate what you have done, acknowledge when you have done wrong, try to make amends and try to do better in the future.
It really is that simple.
But I got to tell you, Probably most if not all religions were started on that premise. So now what?
The impression I get from jar's house of religion is that we should all just love each other (which is not bad) and then make up what God is, which could be very dangerous.
Yada, yada. What does that mean?
If you have to ask, then you don't know. It then becomes clear to me, that you have not yet experienced the Holy Spirit.
You wanna know something jar? If you are attacking Christians, you still are attacking people. Maybe you won't get to experience the Holy Spirit, until you stop.
Sorry rR but exactly does one do "altruistic patterning" (whatever the hell that means) without using their own intellect?
When God comes to you, and tells you about yourself, and Himself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by jar, posted 05-26-2007 12:28 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by jar, posted 05-28-2007 8:57 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 72 of 95 (402603)
05-28-2007 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by riVeRraT
05-28-2007 8:31 PM


Re: Well, since you guys insist on telling folk what I think...
If you have to ask, then you don't know. It then becomes clear to me, that you have not yet experienced the Holy Spirit.
And how do you know it is the Holy Spirit?
When God comes to you, and tells you about yourself, and Himself.
And how do you know it is God?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by riVeRraT, posted 05-28-2007 8:31 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by riVeRraT, posted 05-29-2007 9:39 AM jar has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 73 of 95 (402605)
05-28-2007 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by riVeRraT
05-28-2007 8:19 PM


Re: She is almost human!
Huh? All of them used evidence and reason to achieve what they did.
quote:
Same could be said when searching for God, and answers.
Sure. However, you can't find God using evidence and reason. You can only find God through faith.
quote:
What do you think, anyone who believes in God is a dummy, and does so without any evidence, and reason?
Not using evidence and reason doesn't make someone a dummy.
It means they aren't using evidence and reason.
It's sort of like people not knowing how to use calculus. Both advanced math (like calculus) and the use of evidence and reason (the scientific method) to evaluate claims of fact/reality are simply tools.
I don't know how to use calculus. I don't know how to use lots of different tools. That doesn't make me a dummy, it just makes me ignorant of how to use many different tools.
The problem is, though, that being able to use logic and reason is paramount to being able to make good decisions in our lives in this technologically-advanced, information-age society we currently live in.
Most Americans don't know the first thing about using the tool of critical thinking because they've never been taught. You can be damn sure that the more radical religious elements in this country want to keep such tools as far away from their followers as they possibly can. Even the moderate Catholic Church has always had a lukewarm relationship with scientific thinking.
You abandon reason and logic and evidence in favor of "woo" or what somebody told you the "big woo in the sky" says he wants you to do or be like.
quote:
If a big woo in the sky told me to do something, other than what was already in heart, I would tell him to go fuck himself.
You would tell God to go fuck himself?
If you really took reponsibility for you actions, you wouldn't let these things get in the way of logic and reason and evidence.
quote:
huh?
evidence of what?
If you really took responsibility for your actions, you wouldn't let what somebody told you God wants you to believe or do (or what you think the Bible, or God, wants you believe or do to) get in the way of what reason and logic and evidence are showing you, or could show you if you looked.
You wouldn't let your irrational beliefs (faith) override or supplant reason and logic and evidence (or lack thereof).
By this, I mean things like not being able to follow through to the logical consequences of claims, not being able to discern when claims are contradictory; in general, not being able to think critically or ask appropriate questions before granting tentative assent to a claim.
quote:
Well, I would like to think that doesn't apply to me.
I'd say that in my experience, you are just as guilty of such lapses as the next religious person.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by riVeRraT, posted 05-28-2007 8:19 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by riVeRraT, posted 05-29-2007 9:45 AM nator has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 74 of 95 (402655)
05-29-2007 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by jar
05-28-2007 8:57 PM


Re: Well, since you guys insist on telling folk what I think...
And how do you know it is the Holy Spirit?
And how do you know it is God?
By reading the bible, and constantly testing what I feel. The bible may contain a lot of stories, but it is useful for discerning the Holy Spirit.
It is subjective jar. You know that you know.
I know, and you don't, it is for me, and not you. I can't prove it to you, unless you were over here with me, then I may start to show you, and share with you, what I know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by jar, posted 05-28-2007 8:57 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by jar, posted 05-29-2007 10:34 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 75 of 95 (402656)
05-29-2007 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by nator
05-28-2007 9:31 PM


Re: She is almost human!
Sure. However, you can't find God using evidence and reason. You can only find God through faith.
Well, God finds you. But then there is evidence of that, all be it subjective, and maybe even objective.
Most Americans don't know the first thing about using the tool of critical thinking because they've never been taught. You can be damn sure that the more radical religious elements in this country want to keep such tools as far away from their followers as they possibly can. Even the moderate Catholic Church has always had a lukewarm relationship with scientific thinking.
It is my quest to find a happy medium.
You would tell God to go fuck himself?
If I didn't like what He was saying.
He would have to show me, why He was right, and why I was wrong.
If you really took responsibility for your actions, you wouldn't let what somebody told you God wants you to believe or do (or what you think the Bible, or God, wants you believe or do to) get in the way of what reason and logic and evidence are showing you, or could show you if you looked.
No I wouldn't. I believe logic and reason are from God too.
I'd say that in my experience, you are just as guilty of such lapses as the next religious person.
That just may be you not being able to follow through to the logical consequences of claims, not being able to discern when claims are contradictory; in general, not being able to think critically or ask appropriate questions before granting tentative assent to a claim.
Instead of actually know who I am, and where I am coming from.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by nator, posted 05-28-2007 9:31 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by nator, posted 05-29-2007 10:16 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
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