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Author Topic:   The God of the Bible is Evil
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 190 (402660)
05-29-2007 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by purpledawn
05-29-2007 8:51 AM


Re: Back to the Beginning
purpledawn writes:
quote:
And Harry Truman was evil because he ordered bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Japan.
Not even close to a fair comparison! Harry Truman wasn't an all-knowing, all-seeing king of the fairies.

W.W.E.D.?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by purpledawn, posted 05-29-2007 8:51 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 47 of 190 (402662)
05-29-2007 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Jon Paine
05-28-2007 10:17 PM


Re: Human sacrifice even by God is Evil
This is one story that causes problems for many Christians.
quote:
Would you sacrifice your child in Abraham's circumstance?
I can't comprehend being in Abraham's circumstance, so I can't really answer truthfully.
BTW, Abraham didn't sacrifice his child.
Human sacrifice or sacrifice of children was not unknown in ancient times.
2 Kings 23:10
He also defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter pass through the fire for Molech.
The story you quoted is when Abraham (who is the founder of the Hebrew/Jewish religion) finds out that his God is not like the other God's and does not require human sacrifice. The story explains why the Hebrews did not sacrifice humans.
Like the vision and the prophecy, nothing bad actually happened.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Jon Paine, posted 05-28-2007 10:17 PM Jon Paine has not replied

Replies to this message:
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berberry
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 190 (402666)
05-29-2007 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by purpledawn
05-29-2007 10:55 AM


Re: Human sacrifice even by God is Evil
purpledawn writes:
quote:
Like the vision and the prophecy, nothing bad actually happened.
Didn't Abraham have a knife at his son's throat by the time god, the egomaniacal king of the fairies, stopped him? You don't think old Abe and/or his son might have had a few mental issues to work through after an experience like that?
It's been a long, long time since I read this inspiring and uplifting story about the wonder of god's tender and merciful love, but from what I remember I wouldn't be so sure that "nothing bad actually happened".

W.W.E.D.?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by purpledawn, posted 05-29-2007 10:55 AM purpledawn has not replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 49 of 190 (402669)
05-29-2007 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by purpledawn
05-29-2007 10:55 AM


Re: Human sacrifice even by God is Evil
I think you need to expand more on the whole point of the story.
Human sacrifice was not unknown both in that region, and actually throughout the world. There is also a certain logic to it. To try to sway the God or Gods towards some favorable outcome, usually basic things like good weather for crops but sometimes specific endeavors such as war on a neighboring kingdom, a bargain or contract was the norm.
A general belief was that there had to be some parity between what was being asked and offered. The more valuable the thing offered, the more likely that the God or Gods would respond favorably.
What could be more valuable than human life, specifically a human life that was personally valuable to the person asking the boon.
So the request to sacrifice ones own child was not out of line with belief systems of the day.
BUT...
as you pointed out, this is a really poor choice for Jon Paine to pick.
The passage being quoted answers the question. God in this story does NOT demand that the son be sacrificed. Instead, God in this story stops the act even though it seems reasonable to Abraham, and even follows through by providing a ram instead.
This particular tale is a great one to teach kids. As with the other examples Jon Paine has presented so far, the problem is not with the story, but with the presentation of the story and with quotemining parts out of the story, taking them out of context.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by berberry, posted 05-29-2007 11:49 AM jar has replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 190 (402674)
05-29-2007 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by jar
05-29-2007 11:14 AM


Re: Human sacrifice even by God is Evil
As I see it, you and purpledawn are dancing around one of the most basic problems with biblical christianity. Any decent god who sees his or her subjects sacrificing one another as some sort of plea for good weather should make an Endora-style appearance out of nowhere and tell them to "stop, stop, stop it this instant!" The fact that he or she doesn't do so should tell us everything we need to know about this ridiculous, capricious drama queen.

W.W.E.D.?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by jar, posted 05-29-2007 11:14 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by jar, posted 05-29-2007 11:58 AM berberry has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 51 of 190 (402676)
05-29-2007 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by berberry
05-29-2007 11:49 AM


Re: Human sacrifice even by God is Evil
But that is exactly what this story does. It is one, (just one) of such moments.
This particular story is one such basis for God telling Man that human sacrifice is wrong.
As I see it, you and purpledawn are dancing around one of the most basic problems with biblical christianity.
I'm not at all sure how you arrive at such an assertion. I think you will find that I (I can only speak for myself) have always said that the concentration of Biblical Christianity (particularly the US Christian Cult of Ignorance) on the merit of Blood Sacrifice was a perversion of the message of the Bible.
This story is a great example of that. It is one of God telling folk to "stop, stop, stop it this instant!"

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by berberry, posted 05-29-2007 11:49 AM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by berberry, posted 05-29-2007 12:21 PM jar has replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 190 (402679)
05-29-2007 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by jar
05-29-2007 11:58 AM


Re: Human sacrifice even by God is Evil
Oh, I know you're a liberal Christian and that you and I usually agree on social issues (I think the same is true of purpledawn), but both of you seem to be trying to put these actions by the god of the bible into some sort of context, which I see as ridiculous. My point is that an all-knowing god would know better than to behave like this. A human being living at the time of Abraham might be excused for having such a low regard for human life, but there can be absolutely no excuse for an all-knowing god.
I agree with you entirely about the C.C.O.I. (although I might quibble that it isn't confined to the US). I'm just trying to point out a catch-22 about the biblical god (which the very title of this thread is talking about). If God exists and he is good, then he can't possibly be the god of the bible. If he exists and he is in fact the god of the bible, then he isn't good. You can't have it both ways, unless, I suppose, you wish to posit that this god character isn't all-knowing.
AbE: I forgot to address one final point:
quote:
This story is a great example of that. It is one of God telling folk to "stop, stop, stop it this instant!"
But why couldn't God just say "stop, stop, stop it this instant!"? Why does he have to put Abraham and the kid through such an ordeal? In other words, why the drama? And why is the story presented (at least by my recollection) as an example of God testing Abraham?
Edited by berberry, : explained in text

W.W.E.D.?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by jar, posted 05-29-2007 11:58 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by jar, posted 05-29-2007 12:40 PM berberry has replied
 Message 55 by purpledawn, posted 05-29-2007 12:48 PM berberry has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 53 of 190 (402681)
05-29-2007 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by berberry
05-29-2007 11:10 AM


Re: Human sacrifice even by God is Evil
I wouldn't be so sure that "nothing bad actually happened".
No shit! Isaac would have been mentally scarred for life.
A freakin' horrible story. It makes the scariest of the Grimm Brothers' collection look pretty tame.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by berberry, posted 05-29-2007 11:10 AM berberry has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 54 of 190 (402685)
05-29-2007 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by berberry
05-29-2007 12:21 PM


Getting off topic.
You can't have it both ways, unless, I suppose, you wish to posit that this god character isn't all-knowing.
Again, I don't think you can point to where I have asserted that God is all-knowing. In fact, the Bible stories themselves contain examples of God not knowing everything.
Oh, I know you're a liberal Christian and that you and I usually agree on social issues (I think the same is true of purpledawn), but both of you seem to be trying to put these actions by the god of the bible into some sort of context, which I see as ridiculous.
Why is it ridiculous to suggest that if you are to learn what it is the Bible says, that you should look at it in context?
My point is that an all-knowing god would know better than to behave like this. A human being living at the time of Abraham might be excused for having such a low regard for human life, but there can be absolutely no excuse for an all-knowing god.
Setting aside for the moment the issue of whether or not GOD as opposed to individual depictions of God as presented in various Bible stories is All-Knowing, this story does exactly what you say it should be doing.
I believe you also make a mistake thinking that human sacrifice it is related to a low regard for human life. Human sacrifice is actually exactly the opposite of a low regard for human life. The whole point of human sacrifice is that life is held not just in high regard, but the highest regard.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by berberry, posted 05-29-2007 12:21 PM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by berberry, posted 05-29-2007 1:06 PM jar has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 55 of 190 (402688)
05-29-2007 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by berberry
05-29-2007 12:21 PM


Re: Human sacrifice even by God is Evil
quote:
If God exists and he is good, then he can't possibly be the god of the bible. If he exists and he is in fact the god of the bible, then he isn't good.
Why? Make your case.
quote:
You can't have it both ways, unless, I suppose, you wish to posit that this god character isn't all-knowing.
I don't think I've ever claimed that God is all-knowing. If you feel God is evil because he is all-knowing, then show what in the OT leads you to believe that God is all knowing.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by berberry, posted 05-29-2007 12:21 PM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Taz, posted 05-29-2007 1:04 PM purpledawn has not replied
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 56 of 190 (402689)
05-29-2007 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by purpledawn
05-29-2007 8:51 AM


Re: Back to the Beginning
purpledawn writes:
And Harry Truman was evil because he ordered bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Japan.
Actually, no. Harry Truman wasn't an all knowing, all powerful god that could ahve just ended the war just like that. In the long run, the atom bombs killed far less people than an all out invasion of Japan.
Purpledawn, I'm debating with you in good faith. But it seems to me like you're just throwing things out there just to win an argument. You are using examples that aren't really comparable to what we are talking about.
As I asked before, in a war who is evil?
The Israelites were at war with the Egyptians. But god wasn't at war with the Egyptian gods.
No. I agree that the actions on both sides were "evil", but like I showed above, that doesn't make the person or god evil.
I don't understand why you are ignoring the fact that we are talking about an all knowing and all powerful god, here. You're acting like god is some kind of superhero who couldn't figure out any other way to free the Israelites without killing off completely innocent children.
Several times now, you've referred to god as a "hero". But we can't see god as a hero. He's all knowing and all powerful.
Back to the Harry Truman example. If Harry Truman decided to drop the bombs on Japanese cities even though all he had to do was send a letter to the Japanese Emperor to end the war, YES we would consider Harry Truman to be a very evil man.
So, I ask you again. Instead of just snapping his fingers to free the people of Israel, the god of the bible decided to kill completely innocent children to free his people. By our standard in this time and place, is god of the bible evil?
Can we show that the God of the Bible had no good intentions whatsoever?
I'm pretty sure Hitler had at least 1 good intention. You're implying that he's not evil.
Can we show that the God of the Bible enjoyed the suffering of the opposition?
Ok, let me ask you this question. If I go over to my neighbor's house and slaughter my neighbor's children, does it matter whether I enjoy doing it or not?
Now if people want to go with the typical knee jerk reaction that anything we don't like or don't understand is evil, then there's nothing I can say or do to counter that viewpoint.
Oh, really? What is there to like? What is there to not understand? It's certainly not a kneejerk reaction either.
Here is a bleedingly obvious example if you still don't understand what I'm saying.
Suppose I want to take a swim in my neighbor's pool. I have no doubt that if I ask he'd say yes right away. But instead of asking, I just march right over to his house, knock him out with a baseball bat, ducttape him and his family to their chairs, and enjoy an evening in their swimming pool.
Asking and using brute force will achieve essentially the same goal, to be able to swim in the pool. But honestly, what kind of egomaniac am I to actually use brute force?
God could have enlightened the Egyptian king. God could have done a myriad other things without hurting innocent children to free his people. But instead, he chose to do the most vile acts to achieve the same goal. Does this sound like a good god to you?
Kneejerk reaction? Please.
No. I agree that the actions on both sides were "evil", but like I showed above, that doesn't make the person or god evil. In this day and age, we separate the action from the person or at least we are supposed to.
The fact that god decided to kill innocent children even though with his all knowing and all powerful self he could have done less evil deeds makes him evil. This is not some spur of the moment thing.


We are BOG. Resistance is voltage over current.
Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by purpledawn, posted 05-29-2007 8:51 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 57 of 190 (402690)
05-29-2007 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by purpledawn
05-29-2007 12:48 PM


Re: Human sacrifice even by God is Evil
purpledawn writes:
...show what in the OT leads you to believe that God is all knowing.
Proverbs 5:21


We are BOG. Resistance is voltage over current.
Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by purpledawn, posted 05-29-2007 12:48 PM purpledawn has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by ringo, posted 05-29-2007 1:37 PM Taz has replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 190 (402691)
05-29-2007 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by jar
05-29-2007 12:40 PM


Re: Getting off topic.
jar, everything I've said is in support of the assertion made in the very title of this thread, I can't see how it's off-topic. But I've misunderstood you:
quote:
Again, I don't think you can point to where I have asserted that God is all-knowing. In fact, the Bible stories themselves contain examples of God not knowing everything.
I'm sorry, I didn't realize that was your position. It's rather unusual, though. This is the first time I've encountered anyone (so far as I know, anyway) who believes in a god afflicted by ignorance.
I think the bible itself does assert that God is all-knowing, but I can't remember where. Certainly the belief that God is all-powerful (omnipotent) would require that he be all-knowing - knowledge being power and all. Or am I missing something?
quote:
...this story does exactly what you say it should be doing.
With a lot of superfluous drama, I suppose maybe it does. I still say that any god who is indeed good would have done it with just a few choice words.
quote:
The whole point of human sacrifice is that life is held not just in high regard, but the highest regard.
In a way, yes. I think there's a potential argument here, but it probably would be off-topic. But again, I've never considered the possibility of an ignorant god. I suppose that would change things a little.

W.W.E.D.?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by jar, posted 05-29-2007 12:40 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 05-29-2007 1:46 PM berberry has replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 190 (402692)
05-29-2007 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by purpledawn
05-29-2007 12:48 PM


God is Great, God is Good, because God is Ignorant!
purpledawn writes me:
quote:
I don't think I've ever claimed that God is all-knowing.
If God is ignorant, that explains a lot more than we're discussing here.

W.W.E.D.?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by purpledawn, posted 05-29-2007 12:48 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 60 of 190 (402696)
05-29-2007 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Taz
05-29-2007 12:51 PM


Re: Back to the Beginning
Tazmanian Devil writes:
By our standard in this time and place, is god of the bible evil?
But that's the wrong standard to use. The OP refers to God as portrayed in the Bible. We need to look at that portrayal in the context of those who were portraying Him.
In fairy tales, the Big Bad Wolf is portrayed as "bad". By our standards, wolves aren't "bad", they're just trying to survive. But we read Little Red Riding Hood in the context in which it was written, not in our own context. Why do differently with the Bible?
Edited by Ringo, : Adverbificated "differently.

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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