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Author Topic:   The God of the Bible is Evil
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 76 of 190 (402713)
05-29-2007 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Taz
05-29-2007 12:51 PM


God of the Bible
quote:
I don't understand why you are ignoring the fact that we are talking about an all knowing and all powerful god, here.
I'm talking about the God of the Bible, not an all-knowing or all-powerful god.
quote:
Purpledawn, I'm debating with you in good faith. But it seems to me like you're just throwing things out there just to win an argument. You are using examples that aren't really comparable to what we are talking about.
Actually your examples are not comparable to what I've been saying. In Message 23 and Message 33, I'm comparing the Exodus story with other types of storytelling.
In Message 37 you brought in actual events, not stories and I responded with actual events that could be considered evil depending on which side of the event one is on. You responded: Actually, no. Harry Truman wasn't an all knowing, all powerful god that could have just ended the war just like that. Well none of your examples were of all-knowing or all-powerful gods either. So I don't understand the point in mentioning them concerning the Exodus story or my position.
As I said in Message 33: There are fictional stories depicting real places and real people, but the events didn't take place as told in the story and the real people didn't actual speak the words attributed to them in the story.
I also pointed out in Message 33 that looking at the various authors established by the Documentary Hypothesis, the killings didn't seem to take place in the J portion. The J author spoke of wonders and bringing the people into favor. Hard to do after all the plagues and killing the first born.
Do we determine "evil" within our literature the same as we do in reality? I used a movie as an example in Message 16.
Even in stories and movies today, there is a good guy and a bad guy. Conflict makes the story interesting. Even our cartoons blast the bad guy. In the Exodus story, Egypt is the bad guy.
Just like the movie Independence Day. The aliens were planning to colonize the planet. This was all out war. It is likely that on the "mother ship" there were civilians or innocent aliens. We destroyed them all. Are we then evil or just surviving?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Taz, posted 05-29-2007 12:51 PM Taz has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 77 of 190 (402714)
05-29-2007 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Taz
05-29-2007 2:55 PM


Tazmanian Devil writes:
... if you want to take this route, we'd have to admit that Hitler wasn't evil....
In the context of Allied propaganda, Hitler was evil. In the context of the history written by his enemies, he was evil.
In the context of Nazi propaganda, he wasn't.
Do you think slavery was evil or not?
My opinion, like yours, is irrelevant.
We are talking about how God was portrayed in the Bible, not how He "is". The portrayal is not evil because the people doing the portraying didn't intend it to be evil. Any "evil" in it is painted on by your preconceived notions.
(If a hobbit is described as "tall" by other hobbits, does our own concept of "tall" have any relevance?)

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 Message 72 by Taz, posted 05-29-2007 2:55 PM Taz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by berberry, posted 05-29-2007 3:40 PM ringo has replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 190 (402716)
05-29-2007 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by jar
05-29-2007 3:13 PM


Re: Trying to head back towards the topic.
jar writes me:
quote:
But women were property, and were treated as property, somewhat more valuable though than a goat or cow.
Exactly. Why didn't God do something about that? The only possible reasons are a: he's evil or b: he's ignorant. And if we're going to hang the argument that the god of the bible isn't evil on the possibility that he's ignorant, then there was no point to this thread to begin with and it never should have been approved. I think the same could be said about many other threads on this forum.

W.W.E.D.?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by jar, posted 05-29-2007 3:13 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 05-29-2007 3:51 PM berberry has replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 190 (402717)
05-29-2007 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by ringo
05-29-2007 3:21 PM


Ringo writes:
quote:
We are talking about how God was portrayed in the Bible, not how He "is".
Yes!
quote:
The portrayal is not evil because the people doing the portraying didn't intend it to be evil. Any "evil" in it is painted on by your preconceived notions.
Then let's go back to the Hitler analogy. If I go and read that Nazi propaganda you were talking about, I'd be wrong to consider Hitler evil because the people doing the portraying don't intend him to be portrayed as evil? Even if that propoganda talks about the ovens and the gas chambers?

W.W.E.D.?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by ringo, posted 05-29-2007 3:21 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by ringo, posted 05-29-2007 3:50 PM berberry has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 80 of 190 (402719)
05-29-2007 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by berberry
05-29-2007 3:40 PM


berberry writes:
If I go and read that Nazi propaganda you were talking about, I'd be wrong to consider Hitler evil because the people doing the portraying don't intend him to be portrayed as evil?
You'd be wrong to claim that he was portrayed as evil.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by berberry, posted 05-29-2007 3:40 PM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by berberry, posted 05-29-2007 4:15 PM ringo has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 81 of 190 (402721)
05-29-2007 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by berberry
05-29-2007 3:31 PM


Re: Trying to head back towards the topic.
Exactly. Why didn't God do something about that? The only possible reasons are a: he's evil or b: he's ignorant.
Or that God did not write the Bible or that God did do something and is doing something about it. Today, in many parts of the world, women are no longer property.
And if we're going to hang the argument that the god of the bible isn't evil on the possibility that he's ignorant, then there was no point to this thread to begin with and it never should have been approved.
I don't think that I have made that case. But I do agree that the thread is pretty weak, but I also think that some good can be made of it.
The value I see in the thread lies in trying to teach folk how to actually read the stories in the Bible.
The value is in looking at the messages within the context of the stories themselves. For example, the issue of women as property is an important one. At the time many of these stories were written, women were property. The stories give us a picture of how the peoples at the time saw women.
It is different than we see them today.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by berberry, posted 05-29-2007 3:31 PM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by berberry, posted 05-29-2007 4:32 PM jar has replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 190 (402729)
05-29-2007 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by ringo
05-29-2007 3:50 PM


Ringo writes me:
quote:
You'd be wrong to claim that he was portrayed as evil.
Perhaps. But not to claim that he is evil, as portrayed.

W.W.E.D.?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by ringo, posted 05-29-2007 3:50 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by ringo, posted 05-29-2007 4:25 PM berberry has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 83 of 190 (402731)
05-29-2007 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by berberry
05-29-2007 4:15 PM


berberry writes:
You'd be wrong to claim that he was portrayed as evil.
Perhaps. But not to claim that he is evil, as portrayed.
So it's clear then that the "evil" is in your perception and not in the portrayal itself?
(Did Rubens portray women as "fat"? No. He portrayed them as "beautiful".)

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by berberry, posted 05-29-2007 4:15 PM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by berberry, posted 05-29-2007 4:42 PM ringo has replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 190 (402732)
05-29-2007 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by jar
05-29-2007 3:51 PM


Re: Trying to head back towards the topic.
jar writes me:
quote:
Or that God did not write the Bible or that God did do something and is doing something about it.
Fair enough. But the question is whether or not the biblical god is evil. That would mean God as he is presented in the bible, not god as he actually exists (assuming...)

W.W.E.D.?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 05-29-2007 3:51 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 05-29-2007 4:39 PM berberry has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 85 of 190 (402733)
05-29-2007 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by berberry
05-29-2007 4:32 PM


depictions
But the question is whether or not the biblical god is evil.
Again, there is not one Biblical God. Instead there are many different and separate stories each with a very human portrayal of some tale.
So far several examples have been introduced. None have shown an evil God.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by berberry, posted 05-29-2007 4:32 PM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by berberry, posted 05-29-2007 4:45 PM jar has replied
 Message 94 by iceage, posted 05-29-2007 7:52 PM jar has replied
 Message 96 by Doddy, posted 05-29-2007 8:38 PM jar has replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 190 (402734)
05-29-2007 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by ringo
05-29-2007 4:25 PM


Ringo asks me:
quote:
So it's clear then that the "evil" is in your perception and not in the portrayal itself?
If you insist. As I see it, any portrayal of the killing of millions of innocent people in exceedingly cruel ways would seem evil. But then I guess that would just be my perception. Silly me.

W.W.E.D.?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by ringo, posted 05-29-2007 4:25 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by ringo, posted 05-29-2007 4:50 PM berberry has replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 190 (402735)
05-29-2007 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by jar
05-29-2007 4:39 PM


Re: depictions
jar writes me:
quote:
So far several examples have been introduced. None have shown an evil God.
The god who ordered the revenge killings of the Amalekites on a whim was an evil god. But just like I was saying to Ringo about Hitler, that's just my perception of evil. Others might have different perceptions about revenge killings.

W.W.E.D.?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 05-29-2007 4:39 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 05-29-2007 5:11 PM berberry has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 88 of 190 (402736)
05-29-2007 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by berberry
05-29-2007 4:42 PM


berberry writes:
Silly me.
What strikes me as silly about this thread is that we see atheists arguing for an absolute morality.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by berberry, posted 05-29-2007 4:42 PM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Taz, posted 05-29-2007 5:30 PM ringo has not replied
 Message 91 by iceage, posted 05-29-2007 6:30 PM ringo has replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 89 of 190 (402738)
05-29-2007 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by berberry
05-29-2007 4:45 PM


Re: depictions
The god who ordered the revenge killings of the Amalekites on a whim was an evil god.
Well, since you have not specified what it is you are referring to, I assume that it is Samuel 15. If so, it was hardly on a whim.
That is a very interesting story and the point seems to have slipped past you.
Like the tale of the Pied Piper, the point is different than the images used to push the thought home. In this case the point of the story was that simple ceremony or profession is not what counts, it is actually listening and doing what God wants you to do and that neither ceremony or position will count.
The story is harsh when seen through today's lens, but not much different than many other similar tales. The important thing IMHO is to teach the whole story, not just pieces parts of it, but to go on and show the story within the context of the time and culture.
If you are referring to some other passage, please let me know and we can discuss it.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by berberry, posted 05-29-2007 4:45 PM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by berberry, posted 05-30-2007 2:50 AM jar has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 90 of 190 (402739)
05-29-2007 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by ringo
05-29-2007 4:50 PM


For the record, this atheist believes in absolute morality. Long story. Was mostly influenced by my Ethics professor, which was an Atheist Hebrew Scholar.
Anyway, all I wanted to say have been said. There's really nothing else for me to say without repeating myself.
Have a good one!


We are BOG. Resistance is voltage over current.
Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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