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Author Topic:   The God of the Bible is Evil
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 91 of 190 (402740)
05-29-2007 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by ringo
05-29-2007 4:50 PM


Absolutes.
Ringo writes:
What strikes me as silly about this thread is that we see atheists arguing for an absolute morality.
Why is that silly? Do you believe atheist are necessarily required to be moral relativist?
Atheist and agnostics can and do believe in absolute morality and purpose in life, they just do not base it on some imaginary (and typically anthropomorphic) deity.
Not to hijack this thread but Atheist and Agnostics can make a better argument for absolute morality than Christians.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by ringo, posted 05-29-2007 4:50 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 92 of 190 (402742)
05-29-2007 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by iceage
05-29-2007 6:30 PM


Re: Absolutes.
iceage writes:
Do you believe atheist are necessarily required to be moral relativist?
No. It's just that they don't have an arbitrary absolute foundation to build absolutism on.
Atheist and agnostics can and do believe in absolute morality and purpose in life....
Where did I say anything about "purpose in life"?
(And why are atheists so defensive? )
Edited by Ringo, : Capitalization.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by iceage, posted 05-29-2007 6:30 PM iceage has replied

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 93 of 190 (402745)
05-29-2007 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by ringo
05-29-2007 6:55 PM


Re: Absolutes.
Ringo writes:
No. It's just that they don't have an arbitrary absolute foundation to build absolutism on.
As an example, many atheists are Humanist. Looking up one definition of Humanism from the American Humanist website:
Humanism Definition writes:
Humanism is a progressive philosophy of life that, without supernaturalism, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good of humanity.
From "aspire to the greater good of humanity" one can resolve moral problems from an absolute moral perspective. Humanism comes closer to being an absolute morality than Christianity does.
Please note I am not a Humanist, just responding the implied assumption that Atheist are necessarily moral relativist.

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 94 of 190 (402747)
05-29-2007 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by jar
05-29-2007 4:39 PM


Re: depictions
Jar writes:
So far several examples have been introduced. None have shown an evil God.
Of course, the definition of "evil" is key here and that is a different topic.
Nevertheless I would offer this example from Deuteronomy as a depiction of evil...
Deuteronomy 20:10-14 writes:
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
This compact example features murder, slavery, theft and rape. This example should fit well within the bounds of most definitions of evil.
Edited by iceage, : spelling

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 Message 85 by jar, posted 05-29-2007 4:39 PM jar has replied

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 Message 95 by jar, posted 05-29-2007 7:54 PM iceage has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 95 of 190 (402748)
05-29-2007 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by iceage
05-29-2007 7:52 PM


Re: depictions
This compact example features murder, slavery, theft and rape. This example should fit will within bounds of most definitions of evil.
How so?
Within the definitions of the day, how was that evil?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by iceage, posted 05-29-2007 9:25 PM jar has replied

  
Doddy
Member (Idle past 5910 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 96 of 190 (402750)
05-29-2007 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by jar
05-29-2007 4:39 PM


Re: depictions
jar writes:
None have shown an evil God.
I propose the God portayed in Micah.
quote:
Micah 1:12 For the inhabitant of Maroth waited carefully for good: but evil came down from the LORD unto the gate of Jerusalem.
Micah 2:3 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil, from which ye shall not remove your necks; neither shall ye go haughtily: for this time is evil.
Micah 5:14-15 And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee: so will I destroy thy cities. And I will execute vengeance in anger and fury upon the heathen, such as they have not heard.
I think that when the story actually specifically says that God is doing evil, devising evil actions and executing vengeance, anger and fury, that it suggests more than any other story that God isn't completely good.
But, I don't think it rules out that God is good either. Bipolar perhaps, but not psychopathic. Take what the story ends with as an example.
quote:
Micah 7:18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? He retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 05-29-2007 4:39 PM jar has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 97 of 190 (402751)
05-29-2007 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Doddy
05-29-2007 8:38 PM


Re: depictions
Well, again, Micah is a prophetic vision, delivered in extreme language describing what might happen, a worse case scenario.
I think that when the story actually specifically says that God is doing evil, devising evil actions and executing vengeance, anger and fury, that it suggests more than any other story that God isn't completely good.
But I don't think I have suggested that GOD is all good. If you look at Message 5 then you will see that I said:
jar writes:
First, good and evil are a Human construct and a relative determination that we make. The Bible itself says that God creates both good and evil. God is complete.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 98 of 190 (402753)
05-29-2007 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by jar
05-29-2007 7:54 PM


Re: depictions
Jar writes:
Within the definitions of the day, how was that evil?
Leviticus 19:18 "love your neighbor as yourself"
The ethic of reciprocity forms one of the bedrock principles of Christianity and is stressed and amplified several places within the Bible. The various commands and the alleged nature of God described in the OT violate this principle in a most dramatic way. Hence the contradiction that Jon was alluding to, does indeed exist.
Jon did not ask if it was considered good to kill your enemy and rape his female children in the bronze age. He is obviously using a more evolved sense of good/evil. He even provided his definition of evil in the topic
Jon Paine writes:
I contend that it is Evil to kill innocents
I didn't feel it was necessary to delve into to the definition of evil since one was provided, or at least a specific case of what is evil.
While his definition of evil maybe imprecise, I don't believed it is flawed. Evil is almost always defined within terms of life, since without life there is no evil, therefore I do not see it as necessary, within the scope of this topic, to debate the definition of evil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 05-29-2007 7:54 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by jar, posted 05-29-2007 9:51 PM iceage has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 99 of 190 (402758)
05-29-2007 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by iceage
05-29-2007 9:25 PM


reciprocity?
The ethic of reciprocity forms one of the bedrock principles of Christianity and is stressed and amplified several places within the Bible.
But reciprocity is not an issue in the passage you quoted.
You pointed to Deuteronomy 20:10-14. Note this starts off with:
10When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.
It is only if:
12And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:
iceage writes:
Jon did not ask if it was considered good to kill your enemy and rape his female children in the bronze age. He is obviously using a more evolved sense of good/evil. He even provided his definition of evil in the topic
What Jon Paine wants to assert is irrelevant and of no real interest. He started a topic that asserts that " The God of the Bible is Evil." Now if JP wants to assert that "based on Jon Paines personal definition of what he will call evil and regardless of all evidence to the contrary" then his contention might carry some weight.
Even then though it is usually a good idea to offer some support for the assertion that innocents were killed. So far I have not seen any such evidence presented.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by iceage, posted 05-29-2007 9:25 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Taz, posted 05-29-2007 10:02 PM jar has replied
 Message 102 by iceage, posted 05-29-2007 10:32 PM jar has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 100 of 190 (402760)
05-29-2007 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by jar
05-29-2007 9:51 PM


Re: reciprocity?
jar writes:
Even then though it is usually a good idea to offer some support for the assertion that innocents were killed.
I know I said that I was done with this topic, having said what I wanted to say.
I'm just curious. You don't consider the children of the Egyptians innocent? What about those 1 and 2 year olds?


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This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 101 of 190 (402762)
05-29-2007 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Taz
05-29-2007 10:02 PM


Exodus? Asked and Answered.
I'm just curious. You don't consider the children of the Egyptians innocent? What about those 1 and 2 year olds?
Are you talking about the Exodus myths? If so, I have addressed that issue several times.
Edited by jar, : No reason given.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 102 of 190 (402769)
05-29-2007 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by jar
05-29-2007 9:51 PM


Re: reciprocity?
Jar writes:
But reciprocity is not an issue in the passage you quoted.
It does pertain to your assertion...
jar writes:
Within the definitions of the day, how was that evil?
This ethic of reciprocity, aka the golden rule, is one of those working principles that transcends culture and ages, and can be used to determine good/evil. The bible values this principle and it is quoted, amplified and cross referenced numerous times (most people even believe this principle originates from the Bible).
Killing your enemy and raping his female children can never be accommodated within this principle. Hence there is a major inconsistency of philosophy.
Jar writes:
Even then though it is usually a good idea to offer some support for the assertion that innocents were killed. So far I have not seen any such evidence presented.
The historical authenticity of the various passages are not important. The attributing to God, commands to humans to commit murder, genocide and rape are important.
I certainly do not buy that there is some other allegorical pied piper style message being conveyed by these various passages.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by jar, posted 05-29-2007 9:51 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by jar, posted 05-29-2007 10:40 PM iceage has replied
 Message 104 by ringo, posted 05-29-2007 10:41 PM iceage has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 103 of 190 (402771)
05-29-2007 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by iceage
05-29-2007 10:32 PM


Re: reciprocity?
Killing your enemy and raping his female children can never be accommodated within this principle. Hence there is a major inconsistency of philosophy.
Sorry but that is NOT what is in the passage cited. The passage as I have pointed out does include reciprocity. And yes, killing the enemy and raping the women (although that too is simply an unsupported assertion you are creating based on today's moral system) were certainly part of the mores of the day.
The historical authenticity of the various passages are not important. The attributing to God, commands to humans to commit murder, genocide and rape are important.
Actually, I believe I have supported the actual fact that many of the passage were in fact either visions or mythos.
I certainly do not buy that there is some other allegorical pied piper style message being conveyed by these various passages.
That's fine, you are free to hold whatever interpretations you wish, but so far I don't see folk doing much more than making assertions.
As with others, I refer you back to what I posted in Message 5.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 104 of 190 (402772)
05-29-2007 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by iceage
05-29-2007 10:32 PM


Re: reciprocity?
iceage writes:
This ethic of reciprocity, aka the golden rule, is one of those working principles that transcends culture and ages, and can be used to determine good/evil.
If that's true, why did Jesus have to underline/redefine the meaning of "neighbour" in the Good Samaritan parable?
Clearly the average Jew (Old Testament believer) had a different view of who was worthy of "reciprocity" than you do.
Edited by Ringo, : Capitalization.

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This message is a reply to:
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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 105 of 190 (402778)
05-29-2007 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by jar
05-29-2007 10:40 PM


Re: reciprocity?
Jar writes:
Sorry but that is NOT what is in the passage cited. The passage as I have pointed out does include reciprocity.
Yes those passages certainly do not include any shred of the notion of reciprocity and that is my point! The principle of reciprocity is one of those ideas that Bible promotes as a bedrock ethical principle. The principle is valued because it transcends culture and time. The passages cited do violence to that principle.
Jar writes:
And yes, killing the enemy and raping the women (although that too is simply an unsupported assertion you are creating based on today's moral system) were certainly part of the mores of the day.
Ya so they were inline with the mores of the day. They are writings of humans about humans and not anything beyond that. The attribution to God are purely ethnocentric fantasies.
The point is they are in conflict with, not just the mores of today, but the moral standards as taught elsewhere in the Bible.
BTW the depiction of the raping of women is not "simply an unsupported assertion" based on today's moral system. The conclusion is unavoidably still rape - maybe it was more generally accepted in the bronze age - but it was still rape.
Jar writes:
but so far I don't see folk doing much more than making assertions.
Jar in post 5 writes:
The stories themselves are meant to convey a message. In some cases it was to found an identity, in others to set social norms and still others are meant to teach some moral.
You are the one making the assertions, albeit unsupported. Keeping the scope to Deuteronomy 20 what social norms or morals are being taught?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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