Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Christianity Today: Atheism is the only rational outlook.
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 76 of 95 (402659)
05-29-2007 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by riVeRraT
05-29-2007 9:39 AM


Re: Well, since you guys insist on telling folk what I think...
By reading the bible, and constantly testing what I feel. The bible may contain a lot of stories, but it is useful for discerning the Holy Spirit.
Sorry but that is a non-answer. How does the Bible, an inanimate object, discern anything?
I know, and you don't, it is for me, and not you.
The old assertion of secret knowledge gambit.
I can't prove it to you, unless you were over here with me, then I may start to show you, and share with you, what I know.
And just what evidence could be presented in person that could not be presented online?
The two questions remain?
How do you know it is God?
How do you know it is the Holy Spirit?
Jim Jones knew. And he could also show and share with others.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by riVeRraT, posted 05-29-2007 9:39 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2007 9:32 AM jar has replied
 Message 93 by Phat, posted 11-07-2011 12:00 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 77 of 95 (402663)
05-29-2007 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by riVeRraT
05-28-2007 8:19 PM


Re: She is almost human!
riVeRraT writes:
If a big woo in the sky told me to do something, other than what was already in heart, I would tell him to go fuck himself.
Then what do you need the big woo for?

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by riVeRraT, posted 05-28-2007 8:19 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2007 9:33 AM ringo has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 78 of 95 (402670)
05-29-2007 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by riVeRraT
05-28-2007 8:15 PM


Re: Columbus, Lewis And Clark
That's right, every explorer knew where they were going before they left.
Of course I said no such thing. On the contrary, I stressed that Columbus found something he wasn't expecting. Could you try to respond to the things I actually post rather than some gibberish you made up in your head?
But every explorer did going looking for something. That's what makes them explorers. If they'd stayed home basing their opinions about geography on faith, they wouldn't have been explorers. They went looking for evidence about geography, and they based their reports on the evidence they found.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by riVeRraT, posted 05-28-2007 8:15 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2007 9:35 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 79 of 95 (402765)
05-29-2007 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by riVeRraT
05-29-2007 9:45 AM


more riverrat gobbedygook
Sure. However, you can't find God using evidence and reason. You can only find God through faith.
quote:
Well, God finds you. But then there is evidence of that, all be it subjective, and maybe even objective.
No, there is no evidence.
That's why you need faith.
Only people with weak faith need evidence to believe in God.
Most Americans don't know the first thing about using the tool of critical thinking because they've never been taught. You can be damn sure that the more radical religious elements in this country want to keep such tools as far away from their followers as they possibly can. Even the moderate Catholic Church has always had a lukewarm relationship with scientific thinking.
quote:
It is my quest to find a happy medium.
How would you go about instructing people to use critical thinking skills but only let them apply them to certain ideas and not others?
You would tell God to go fuck himself?
quote:
If I didn't like what He was saying.
He would have to show me, why He was right, and why I was wrong.
Are you suggesting that God is wrong sometimes?
I'd say that in my experience, you are just as guilty of such lapses as the next religious person.
quote:
That just may be you not being able to follow through to the logical consequences of claims, not being able to discern when claims are contradictory; in general, not being able to think critically or ask appropriate questions before granting tentative assent to a claim.
Rat, come on.
People regularly tell you in the midst of discussion that you are losing track of your own arguments, are unable to understand analogies, contradict yourself, and in general rather frequently fail to make sense.
Why do you think this happens?
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by riVeRraT, posted 05-29-2007 9:45 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2007 9:42 AM nator has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 80 of 95 (402833)
05-30-2007 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by jar
05-29-2007 10:34 AM


Re: Well, since you guys insist on telling folk what I think...
Sorry but that is a non-answer. How does the Bible, an inanimate object, discern anything?
How does the equation E=MC2 written on a piece of paper, discern anything?
The old assertion of secret knowledge gambit.
Yes, I planned it, now send me $10
And just what evidence could be presented in person that could not be presented online?
Everyday stuff.
The two questions remain?
How do you know it is God?
How do you know it is the Holy Spirit?
You claim you know.
We've had this discussion before.
And the only true answer is love.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by jar, posted 05-29-2007 10:34 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by jar, posted 05-30-2007 9:47 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 81 of 95 (402834)
05-30-2007 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by ringo
05-29-2007 10:57 AM


Re: She is almost human!
Then what do you need the big woo for?
To increase what I already know, and bring me up in the areas I need to be brought up in.
For Him to show me more about Love.
To have a friend.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by ringo, posted 05-29-2007 10:57 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by ringo, posted 05-30-2007 11:18 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 86 by nator, posted 05-30-2007 7:29 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 82 of 95 (402835)
05-30-2007 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Dr Adequate
05-29-2007 11:16 AM


Re: Columbus, Lewis And Clark
Of course I said no such thing. On the contrary, I stressed that Columbus found something he wasn't expecting. Could you try to respond to the things I actually post rather than some gibberish you made up in your head?
My reply was such, because you choose to ignore my point.
But every explorer did going looking for something.
Such is the search for God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-29-2007 11:16 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-31-2007 11:11 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 83 of 95 (402837)
05-30-2007 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by nator
05-29-2007 10:16 PM


Re: more riverrat gobbedygook
No, there is no evidence.
Just because it is subjective, oes not make it non-evidence.
Only people with weak faith need evidence to believe in God.
You got a point there.
How would you go about instructing people to use critical thinking skills but only let them apply them to certain ideas and not others?
Can you be more specific?
Maybe even bring this over to the evidence and faith thread?
This is an interesting question, and I think we address some of it already.
Are you suggesting that God is wrong sometimes?
I can't know the answer to that. The bible says He is not wrong.
I can perceive Him as being wrong in my ignorance.
Inother words, there are many things I do not understand, and many times I even get angry at God.
Rat, come on.
People regularly tell you in the midst of discussion that you are losing track of your own arguments, are unable to understand analogies, contradict yourself, and in general rather frequently fail to make sense.
Why do you think this happens?
1. Sometimes I make mistakes (one of the few to actually admit it)
2. Sometimes people do not understand me, whether it be expressing myself incorrectly, or them reading incorrectly. I have had people explain what I meant to others, many times.
3. People do not even understand what is written in the bible, as did I, and until they have an encounter with God, they will continue to be ignorant.
4. A forum, is not the best communication tool sometimes, when there is too much to say. Some of the things we discuss, take years to understand.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by nator, posted 05-29-2007 10:16 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by nator, posted 05-30-2007 7:57 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 84 of 95 (402838)
05-30-2007 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by riVeRraT
05-30-2007 9:32 AM


Re: Well, since you guys insist on telling folk what I think...
How does the equation E=MC2 written on a piece of paper, discern anything?
It doesn't.
You claim you know.
No, I do NOT claim I know. You are once again misrepresenting people.
We've had this discussion before.
And the only true answer is love.
Sorry but that is a non-answer. How do you tell it is God or the Holy Spirit? You can say love but that is just another buzzword to avoid addressing the issue.
The followers of Jim Jones and Marshall Applewhite were filled with love and from that love they knew they were dealing with God and the Holy Spirit.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2007 9:32 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 85 of 95 (402856)
05-30-2007 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by riVeRraT
05-30-2007 9:33 AM


riVeRraT writes:
Then what do you need the big woo for?
To increase what I already know, and bring me up in the areas I need to be brought up in.
So, what if the "increase" conflicts with what you already know? What if something you hear from the big woo goes against something you thought you already knew? What if the big woo tells you to do something that you used to think was wrong?
It all comes down to: How do you know it's the big woo and not just a big delusion?

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2007 9:33 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2007 8:51 PM ringo has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 86 of 95 (402934)
05-30-2007 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by riVeRraT
05-30-2007 9:33 AM


Harvey
Then what do you need the big woo for?
quote:
To have a friend.
Well, it is certainly refreshing to see a believer admit that they have invented an imaginary friend and called it "god".
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2007 9:33 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 87 of 95 (402939)
05-30-2007 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by riVeRraT
05-30-2007 9:42 AM


Re: more riverrat gobbedygook
No, there is no evidence.
quote:
Just because it is subjective, oes not make it non-evidence.
It makes it useless as evidence.
If you can't show me, or anyone else, your "subjective evidence", then how can we tell the difference between it and delusion, or something somebody made up, or an error?
We can't tell the difference. Therefore, subjective evidence isn't useful for anything other than forming and perpetuating ideas which may or may not be based in reality.
Only people with weak faith need evidence to believe in God.
quote:
You got a point there.
Yepers.
How would you go about instructing people to use critical thinking skills but only let them apply them to certain ideas and not others?
quote:
Can you be more specific?
Maybe even bring this over to the evidence and faith thread?
This is an interesting question, and I think we address some of it already.
I wrote:
Most Americans don't know the first thing about using the tool of critical thinking because they've never been taught. You can be damn sure that the more radical religious elements in this country want to keep such tools as far away from their followers as they possibly can. Even the moderate Catholic Church has always had a lukewarm relationship with scientific thinking.
You seemed to be saying that you wanted to "strike a happy medium" between people using critical thinking skills and at the same time not wanting them to use them "too much", possibly keeping them from applying them to religious doctrine or their own religious beliefs.
Are you suggesting that God is wrong sometimes?
quote:
I can't know the answer to that. The bible says He is not wrong.
I can perceive Him as being wrong in my ignorance.
In other words, there are many things I do not understand, and many times I even get angry at God.
But you just said that you would tell God to go fuck himself if He came down from heaven and told you to do something you didn't already know in your heart to be right. You said that He would have to convince you that He was right and you were wrong.
Are you changing your mind about what you would say to "the big woo in the sky"?
Rat, come on.
People regularly tell you in the midst of discussion that you are losing track of your own arguments, are unable to understand analogies, contradict yourself, and in general rather frequently fail to make sense.
Why do you think this happens?
quote:
1. Sometimes I make mistakes (one of the few to actually admit it)
Sure, we all make mistakes.
In my experience with you, it is very, very, very difficult to get you to see your mistakes. Often, I have been in a thread where you are being told by 4 or 6 other people that you have made certain specific errors and yet you refuse to or are unable to see where you've erred. Then you get annoyed at being nagged at and start making flippant, contentless responses to people's more and more emphatic and strident efforts to explain. It is at these times that it appears that you are just digging in your heels and refusing to correct yourself and are getting snotty to avoid having to do so.
This is one of the biggest reasons people get so incredibly frustrated with you.
quote:
2. Sometimes people do not understand me, whether it be expressing myself incorrectly, or them reading incorrectly. I have had people explain what I meant to others, many times.
Well, expressing oneself clearly and accurately in writing here is a big part of effective debate at EvC. However, losing track of your own arguments, contradicting yourself, and not understanding analogies are not related to writing clearly.
quote:
3. People do not even understand what is written in the bible, as did I, and until they have an encounter with God, they will continue to be ignorant.
That is insider-mentality and it is bullshit.
There are many, many people who claim to have had an "encounter" with god and are plenty ignorant of the content and meaning of the bible. We "encounter" them here on EvC all the time.
quote:
4. A forum, is not the best communication tool sometimes, when there is too much to say. Some of the things we discuss, take years to understand.
Sure, but that's not really what I was talking about.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2007 9:42 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2007 9:03 PM nator has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 88 of 95 (402951)
05-30-2007 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by ringo
05-30-2007 11:18 AM


So, what if the "increase" conflicts with what you already know?
That would be impossible if it was the God who created us.
What if the big woo tells you to do something that you used to think was wrong?
That hasn't happened, and like I said, He would have to show up, and explain to me why.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by ringo, posted 05-30-2007 11:18 AM ringo has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 89 of 95 (402954)
05-30-2007 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by nator
05-30-2007 7:57 PM


Re: more riverrat gobbedygook
Well, it is certainly refreshing to see a believer admit that they have invented an imaginary friend and called it "god".
That is not actually how it happened.
In the begining, I had God in a box, huge box thatr I could not imagine the ends of.
Then He came to me in prayer one day, and told me, that He created us to be friends with Him, and that we were little lords, and He was the big Lord, as corny as that sounds. (just being honest)
Yepers.
Tomorrow morning, when you brush yer teeths, pat yerself on the back.
You seemed to be saying that you wanted to "strike a happy medium" between people using critical thinking skills and at the same time not wanting them to use them "too much", possibly keeping them from applying them to religious doctrine or their own religious beliefs.
Actually, I wanted to be able to believe in God, and be a critical thinker. To believe in science, and God.
Are you changing your mind about what you would say to "the big woo in the sky"?
Um, no.
Often, I have been in a thread where you are being told by 4 or 6 other people that you have made certain specific errors and yet you refuse to or are unable to see where you've erred.
What is it that rrhain used to asy? 2 billion people could think something, doesn't make it right.
It is at these times that it appears that you are just digging in your heels and refusing to correct yourself and are getting snotty to avoid having to do so.
Or maybe I am trying to be nice, and clear things up.
This is one of the biggest reasons people get so incredibly frustrated with you.
It is not everyone, so it doesn't worry me.
Well, expressing oneself clearly and accurately in writing here is a big part of effective debate at EvC. However, losing track of your own arguments, contradicting yourself, and not understanding analogies are not related to writing clearly.
Yes they are.
You are making many claims here, and they all go back to countless pages of debates. I do not think it is fair what you are doing without 100% objective evidence that I am that way. You are breaking forum rules, and now just attacking me.
That is insider-mentality and it is bullshit.
sounds hypocritical to me, call it what you want.
But everything you have said about me, can now be applied to you.
There are many, many people who claim to have had an "encounter" with god and are plenty ignorant of the content and meaning of the bible. We "encounter" them here on EvC all the time.
Yes, they come and go.
Encountering God is a subjective thing, not an objective thing nator, and it is all relative to the person, and where they are at in life. Just like how I am trying to explain to ringo about peoples fruits in life, it's all relative.
But I am here to stay, and I would have hoped by now, that through our discussions, you would have noticed an improvement in me, cause that's what I am here to do. Improve myself, test my faith, and try to share what I know.
If these are considered bad things, then I'll leave.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by nator, posted 05-30-2007 7:57 PM nator has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 90 of 95 (403000)
05-31-2007 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by riVeRraT
05-30-2007 9:35 AM


Re: Columbus, Lewis And Clark
Of course I said no such thing. On the contrary, I stressed that Columbus found something he wasn't expecting. Could you try to respond to the things I actually post rather than some gibberish you made up in your head?
My reply was such, because you choose to ignore my point.
You are lying. Your reply was "That's right, every explorer knew where they were going before they left" --- something which I never said, and do not believe, and which I specifically pointed out was not true.
Now, would you like to respond to my posts, or to some stupid gibberish you've made up in your head?
Such is the search for God.
Let me know if you come up with one single shred of empirical evidence for him, as Columbus did for the existence of America.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by riVeRraT, posted 05-30-2007 9:35 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by jar, posted 05-31-2007 11:47 AM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 92 by riVeRraT, posted 06-01-2007 10:31 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024