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Author Topic:   The God of the Bible is Evil
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 95 of 190 (402748)
05-29-2007 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by iceage
05-29-2007 7:52 PM


Re: depictions
This compact example features murder, slavery, theft and rape. This example should fit will within bounds of most definitions of evil.
How so?
Within the definitions of the day, how was that evil?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by iceage, posted 05-29-2007 7:52 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by iceage, posted 05-29-2007 9:25 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 97 of 190 (402751)
05-29-2007 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Doddy
05-29-2007 8:38 PM


Re: depictions
Well, again, Micah is a prophetic vision, delivered in extreme language describing what might happen, a worse case scenario.
I think that when the story actually specifically says that God is doing evil, devising evil actions and executing vengeance, anger and fury, that it suggests more than any other story that God isn't completely good.
But I don't think I have suggested that GOD is all good. If you look at Message 5 then you will see that I said:
jar writes:
First, good and evil are a Human construct and a relative determination that we make. The Bible itself says that God creates both good and evil. God is complete.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Doddy, posted 05-29-2007 8:38 PM Doddy has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 99 of 190 (402758)
05-29-2007 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by iceage
05-29-2007 9:25 PM


reciprocity?
The ethic of reciprocity forms one of the bedrock principles of Christianity and is stressed and amplified several places within the Bible.
But reciprocity is not an issue in the passage you quoted.
You pointed to Deuteronomy 20:10-14. Note this starts off with:
10When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.
It is only if:
12And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:
iceage writes:
Jon did not ask if it was considered good to kill your enemy and rape his female children in the bronze age. He is obviously using a more evolved sense of good/evil. He even provided his definition of evil in the topic
What Jon Paine wants to assert is irrelevant and of no real interest. He started a topic that asserts that " The God of the Bible is Evil." Now if JP wants to assert that "based on Jon Paines personal definition of what he will call evil and regardless of all evidence to the contrary" then his contention might carry some weight.
Even then though it is usually a good idea to offer some support for the assertion that innocents were killed. So far I have not seen any such evidence presented.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by iceage, posted 05-29-2007 9:25 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Taz, posted 05-29-2007 10:02 PM jar has replied
 Message 102 by iceage, posted 05-29-2007 10:32 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 101 of 190 (402762)
05-29-2007 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Taz
05-29-2007 10:02 PM


Exodus? Asked and Answered.
I'm just curious. You don't consider the children of the Egyptians innocent? What about those 1 and 2 year olds?
Are you talking about the Exodus myths? If so, I have addressed that issue several times.
Edited by jar, : No reason given.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Taz, posted 05-29-2007 10:02 PM Taz has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 103 of 190 (402771)
05-29-2007 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by iceage
05-29-2007 10:32 PM


Re: reciprocity?
Killing your enemy and raping his female children can never be accommodated within this principle. Hence there is a major inconsistency of philosophy.
Sorry but that is NOT what is in the passage cited. The passage as I have pointed out does include reciprocity. And yes, killing the enemy and raping the women (although that too is simply an unsupported assertion you are creating based on today's moral system) were certainly part of the mores of the day.
The historical authenticity of the various passages are not important. The attributing to God, commands to humans to commit murder, genocide and rape are important.
Actually, I believe I have supported the actual fact that many of the passage were in fact either visions or mythos.
I certainly do not buy that there is some other allegorical pied piper style message being conveyed by these various passages.
That's fine, you are free to hold whatever interpretations you wish, but so far I don't see folk doing much more than making assertions.
As with others, I refer you back to what I posted in Message 5.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by iceage, posted 05-29-2007 10:32 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by iceage, posted 05-29-2007 11:16 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 106 of 190 (402782)
05-29-2007 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by iceage
05-29-2007 11:16 PM


Re: reciprocity?
Yes those passages certainly do not include any shred of the notion of reciprocity and that is my point!
And as I pointed out in Message 99 I do see reciprocity.
10When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.
11And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.
The issue is that at the time the passages were written, those outside the Hebrew tribes were simply not considered equals. This is an important point and must be stressed.
It is also one of the key points that arises later when Jesus on many occasions points out to the people that GOD sees all people, not just the Hebrews.
The point is they are in conflict with, not just the mores of today, but the moral standards as taught elsewhere in the Bible.
Granted. The Bible is not one story as I have been pointing out since Message 5. It is not consistent. It is a collection of stories of a variety of peoples and the laws and lessons and even the characterization of God varies through the book.
You are the one making the assertions, albeit unsupported. Keeping the scope to Deuteronomy 20 what social norms or morals are being taught?
That you do not make war on those who make peace.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by iceage, posted 05-29-2007 11:16 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by iceage, posted 05-29-2007 11:51 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 109 of 190 (402790)
05-30-2007 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by iceage
05-29-2007 11:51 PM


Re: Pirate Morals
Yes, that really is Jon's original point. "Goodness" as taught and implied in the NT is in direct conflict with the messages and stories in the OT.
But that is true from the very beginning of the Bible and it is a significant point. The God depicted in Genesis 1 is entirely different than the God depicted in Genesis 2.
The concepts of God change as we move through the Bible. There is no one God of the Bible but rather an evolving view of God, of Man, of neighbor, of nation, of the religion and of morality.
I would say the message is more along the lines that God has given manifest destiny and anyone who stands in the way can be killed or enslaved all with godly justification. That message is evil.
If you actually read all of that chapter, it goes even beyond that. There are certain peoples who are designated specifically as the enemy and they are to be wiped out.
It is also though a very practical manual on how one should behave at that time and within that milieu, extending even to which trees should be cut down
I am not, nor have I , tried to pretend either that GOD is all good, or that there are not conflicts and discrepancies throughout the Bible. There are. It is not one book. The vision and description of God evolves throughout the stories, as do the morals and messages.
The key point though is that it makes more sense to teach the whole body of stories and to teach them in context.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by iceage, posted 05-29-2007 11:51 PM iceage has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 115 of 190 (402836)
05-30-2007 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by berberry
05-30-2007 2:50 AM


Re: depictions
If you wish to carry this further, I'd like you to answer one question: is god all-knowing or is he ignorant?
You seem to be proposing several false issues. First is the false dichotomy seen above. There are other possibilities such as full knowledgeable of what has and is happening but without foreknowledge.
Second, you are once again conflating GOD and the God of the Bible.
If you are speaking of the God of the Bible, then the answer is that different stories give different answers. As I have been saying since Message 5, there is no one God of the Bible, rather the depictions of God evolve gradually over time and they are often mutually exclusive.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by berberry, posted 05-30-2007 2:50 AM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by berberry, posted 05-30-2007 11:01 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 116 of 190 (402850)
05-30-2007 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Jon Paine
05-30-2007 8:39 AM


Re: Can we do this in future?
When a scripture and verse is given as a would be example of the deity's unfairness (Evil?}, let us all consider the malifaction in the context of modern day accepted mores, civil laws, NT ethics and/or the Golden Rule. Only then, let the morality of the issue be considered in light of the "ancient" mores, traditions, and customs.
You can certainly do that but it seems a pretty pointless exercise. As I have pointed out numerous times in this thread, the Bible is not one story but a collection of stories, stories written by different people, different cultures with different purposes.
It might well be productive if you change the focus of the thread as reflected in the topic title, to reflect question of whether or not there is ONE consistent God of the Bible or whether the Bible should be considered, as shown in the Code of Westminster Seminary (a Presbyterian reformed seminary) and some other Christian Sects as
Scripture, as the "very Word of God written," is absolutely authoritative and without error.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Jon Paine, posted 05-30-2007 8:39 AM Jon Paine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Jon Paine, posted 05-30-2007 2:38 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 118 of 190 (402855)
05-30-2007 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by berberry
05-30-2007 11:01 AM


Re: depictions
So maybe I haven't established that the god of the bible is evil, but to my mind there can be no question that he is at least capable of evil.
But that has never been in question. There is also no one God of the Bible, but rather a series of attempts over time to describe a peoples views of God and Gods. The "God of the Bible" changes and evolves over the course of the stories because what is being shown in the Bible stories in not GOD, but rather glimpses of how particular people saw the concept of God.
The Bible itself says that God creates good and evil. I have acknowledged that. GOD is complete. I have said that.
But Evil is a human construct as well, and as such, questions such as "innocent" need to be considered within the context of the particular tale.
If all you are saying is that using YOUR moral standards you find the actuality of killing the first born of the Egyptians evil, I would not argue. I think it was pretty horrific and I have said so.
I also think that disappearing all the children of Hamelin was pretty horrific.
But the Exodus story is an Epic Tale written from the perspective of a particular milieu. It should be read and taught with that understanding.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by berberry, posted 05-30-2007 11:01 AM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by berberry, posted 05-30-2007 12:43 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 120 of 190 (402870)
05-30-2007 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by berberry
05-30-2007 12:43 PM


Re: depictions
That title may only tell half the story, but if we can at least agree that killing an innocent child is always evil - even in spite of the fact that such evil might be done by a good person(s) or a good god or a good society with the purest of motives - we should be able to agree that the god of the bible is, at least in part, evil.
Again, innocent is relative.
And once again, in the Bible we are dealing with descriptions by people of a particular era showing how THEY viewed God and morality at that time.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by berberry, posted 05-30-2007 12:43 PM berberry has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 124 of 190 (402886)
05-30-2007 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Jon Paine
05-30-2007 2:38 PM


Re: Let's Stay the Course for this Thread Please:
How is your approach any different than the usual fundy rant?
How are you any different than the usual fundy?
If I stand up and point out where they are wrong, should I refrain from pointing out when you do exactly the same thing?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Jon Paine, posted 05-30-2007 2:38 PM Jon Paine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Jon Paine, posted 05-30-2007 3:12 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 134 of 190 (403025)
05-31-2007 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Jon Paine
05-31-2007 1:22 PM


Re: The Bible's God is not Good at Passover
The Bible's God is not good at Passover; yet it is celebrated by the Jewish people, and Christians turn a blind eye:
Sorry but Christians also celebrate Passover.
This issue was also covered way back in Message 15.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Jon Paine, posted 05-31-2007 1:22 PM Jon Paine has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 143 of 190 (403195)
06-01-2007 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by ICANT
06-01-2007 12:14 AM


Re: God as depicted:
This declares God:
To be perfect in His work.
That all His ways are judgment.
That God is true.
That God is without sin.
That God is just and right.
Saying something is so does not make it so.
The Bible also says that God creates evil. Isaiah 45:7
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Your answer, "God made the rules" also goes on to make your God truly evil.
If you want, we can play quotemine the Bible all day, but the God you worship does not stand up to reason anymore than the God created by Jon Paine.
You both trivialize God and turn God into some burlesque show comedy rendition of "Har cum de judge." The Gods you guys create are good for a laugh, and as slapstick comedy they have a certain appeal, but once the house lights come up we get to see the layers of face paint and that the set is but cardboard and whitewash.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by ICANT, posted 06-01-2007 12:14 AM ICANT has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 159 of 190 (404223)
06-07-2007 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Jon Paine
06-07-2007 11:20 AM


Re: Natural Disasters are God's Wrath
I, like many, was taught this stuff literally as a child so you might understand its' significance and resonance for some of us.
I believe that. But you are not attacking a dead horse, you are attacking the wrong target entirely.
The problem is not that the God of the Bible is evil, the very verse you quoted from Nahum says otherwise, but rather the way that the Bible is taught.
Instead of ranting on about the God of the Bible, you should be ranting about those who teach as you were taught.
The issue is not the Bible, it is the teachers, the Pastors and Priests and Padres and Ministers who teach from a position of Ignorance and who fail to teach the context of the Bible and the stories therein.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Jon Paine, posted 06-07-2007 11:20 AM Jon Paine has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by iceage, posted 06-07-2007 1:10 PM jar has replied

  
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