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Member (Idle past 5188 days) Posts: 649 From: Melbourne, Australia Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Christianity Today: Atheism is the only rational outlook. | |||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
By reading the bible, and constantly testing what I feel. The bible may contain a lot of stories, but it is useful for discerning the Holy Spirit. Sorry but that is a non-answer. How does the Bible, an inanimate object, discern anything?
I know, and you don't, it is for me, and not you. The old assertion of secret knowledge gambit.
I can't prove it to you, unless you were over here with me, then I may start to show you, and share with you, what I know. And just what evidence could be presented in person that could not be presented online? The two questions remain? How do you know it is God?How do you know it is the Holy Spirit? Jim Jones knew. And he could also show and share with others. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
riVeRraT writes: If a big woo in the sky told me to do something, other than what was already in heart, I would tell him to go fuck himself. Then what do you need the big woo for? Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 310 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
That's right, every explorer knew where they were going before they left. Of course I said no such thing. On the contrary, I stressed that Columbus found something he wasn't expecting. Could you try to respond to the things I actually post rather than some gibberish you made up in your head? But every explorer did going looking for something. That's what makes them explorers. If they'd stayed home basing their opinions about geography on faith, they wouldn't have been explorers. They went looking for evidence about geography, and they based their reports on the evidence they found.
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nator Member (Idle past 2196 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Sure. However, you can't find God using evidence and reason. You can only find God through faith. quote: No, there is no evidence. That's why you need faith. Only people with weak faith need evidence to believe in God.
Most Americans don't know the first thing about using the tool of critical thinking because they've never been taught. You can be damn sure that the more radical religious elements in this country want to keep such tools as far away from their followers as they possibly can. Even the moderate Catholic Church has always had a lukewarm relationship with scientific thinking. quote: How would you go about instructing people to use critical thinking skills but only let them apply them to certain ideas and not others?
You would tell God to go fuck himself? quote: Are you suggesting that God is wrong sometimes?
I'd say that in my experience, you are just as guilty of such lapses as the next religious person. quote: Rat, come on. People regularly tell you in the midst of discussion that you are losing track of your own arguments, are unable to understand analogies, contradict yourself, and in general rather frequently fail to make sense. Why do you think this happens? Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
Sorry but that is a non-answer. How does the Bible, an inanimate object, discern anything? How does the equation E=MC2 written on a piece of paper, discern anything?
The old assertion of secret knowledge gambit. Yes, I planned it, now send me $10
And just what evidence could be presented in person that could not be presented online? Everyday stuff.
The two questions remain? How do you know it is God?How do you know it is the Holy Spirit? You claim you know. We've had this discussion before. And the only true answer is love.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
Then what do you need the big woo for? To increase what I already know, and bring me up in the areas I need to be brought up in. For Him to show me more about Love. To have a friend.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
Of course I said no such thing. On the contrary, I stressed that Columbus found something he wasn't expecting. Could you try to respond to the things I actually post rather than some gibberish you made up in your head? My reply was such, because you choose to ignore my point.
But every explorer did going looking for something. Such is the search for God.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
No, there is no evidence. Just because it is subjective, oes not make it non-evidence.
Only people with weak faith need evidence to believe in God. You got a point there.
How would you go about instructing people to use critical thinking skills but only let them apply them to certain ideas and not others? Can you be more specific?Maybe even bring this over to the evidence and faith thread? This is an interesting question, and I think we address some of it already. Are you suggesting that God is wrong sometimes? I can't know the answer to that. The bible says He is not wrong.I can perceive Him as being wrong in my ignorance. Inother words, there are many things I do not understand, and many times I even get angry at God.
Rat, come on. People regularly tell you in the midst of discussion that you are losing track of your own arguments, are unable to understand analogies, contradict yourself, and in general rather frequently fail to make sense. Why do you think this happens? 1. Sometimes I make mistakes (one of the few to actually admit it)2. Sometimes people do not understand me, whether it be expressing myself incorrectly, or them reading incorrectly. I have had people explain what I meant to others, many times. 3. People do not even understand what is written in the bible, as did I, and until they have an encounter with God, they will continue to be ignorant. 4. A forum, is not the best communication tool sometimes, when there is too much to say. Some of the things we discuss, take years to understand.
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
How does the equation E=MC2 written on a piece of paper, discern anything? It doesn't.
You claim you know.
No, I do NOT claim I know. You are once again misrepresenting people.
We've had this discussion before. And the only true answer is love. Sorry but that is a non-answer. How do you tell it is God or the Holy Spirit? You can say love but that is just another buzzword to avoid addressing the issue. The followers of Jim Jones and Marshall Applewhite were filled with love and from that love they knew they were dealing with God and the Holy Spirit. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
riVeRraT writes: Then what do you need the big woo for? To increase what I already know, and bring me up in the areas I need to be brought up in. So, what if the "increase" conflicts with what you already know? What if something you hear from the big woo goes against something you thought you already knew? What if the big woo tells you to do something that you used to think was wrong? It all comes down to: How do you know it's the big woo and not just a big delusion? Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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nator Member (Idle past 2196 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Then what do you need the big woo for? quote: Well, it is certainly refreshing to see a believer admit that they have invented an imaginary friend and called it "god". Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2196 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
No, there is no evidence. quote: It makes it useless as evidence. If you can't show me, or anyone else, your "subjective evidence", then how can we tell the difference between it and delusion, or something somebody made up, or an error? We can't tell the difference. Therefore, subjective evidence isn't useful for anything other than forming and perpetuating ideas which may or may not be based in reality.
Only people with weak faith need evidence to believe in God. quote: Yepers.
How would you go about instructing people to use critical thinking skills but only let them apply them to certain ideas and not others? quote: I wrote:
Most Americans don't know the first thing about using the tool of critical thinking because they've never been taught. You can be damn sure that the more radical religious elements in this country want to keep such tools as far away from their followers as they possibly can. Even the moderate Catholic Church has always had a lukewarm relationship with scientific thinking. You seemed to be saying that you wanted to "strike a happy medium" between people using critical thinking skills and at the same time not wanting them to use them "too much", possibly keeping them from applying them to religious doctrine or their own religious beliefs.
Are you suggesting that God is wrong sometimes? quote: But you just said that you would tell God to go fuck himself if He came down from heaven and told you to do something you didn't already know in your heart to be right. You said that He would have to convince you that He was right and you were wrong. Are you changing your mind about what you would say to "the big woo in the sky"?
Rat, come on. People regularly tell you in the midst of discussion that you are losing track of your own arguments, are unable to understand analogies, contradict yourself, and in general rather frequently fail to make sense. Why do you think this happens? quote: Sure, we all make mistakes. In my experience with you, it is very, very, very difficult to get you to see your mistakes. Often, I have been in a thread where you are being told by 4 or 6 other people that you have made certain specific errors and yet you refuse to or are unable to see where you've erred. Then you get annoyed at being nagged at and start making flippant, contentless responses to people's more and more emphatic and strident efforts to explain. It is at these times that it appears that you are just digging in your heels and refusing to correct yourself and are getting snotty to avoid having to do so. This is one of the biggest reasons people get so incredibly frustrated with you.
quote: Well, expressing oneself clearly and accurately in writing here is a big part of effective debate at EvC. However, losing track of your own arguments, contradicting yourself, and not understanding analogies are not related to writing clearly.
quote: That is insider-mentality and it is bullshit. There are many, many people who claim to have had an "encounter" with god and are plenty ignorant of the content and meaning of the bible. We "encounter" them here on EvC all the time.
quote: Sure, but that's not really what I was talking about. Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
So, what if the "increase" conflicts with what you already know? That would be impossible if it was the God who created us.
What if the big woo tells you to do something that you used to think was wrong? That hasn't happened, and like I said, He would have to show up, and explain to me why.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
Well, it is certainly refreshing to see a believer admit that they have invented an imaginary friend and called it "god". That is not actually how it happened.In the begining, I had God in a box, huge box thatr I could not imagine the ends of. Then He came to me in prayer one day, and told me, that He created us to be friends with Him, and that we were little lords, and He was the big Lord, as corny as that sounds. (just being honest) Yepers. Tomorrow morning, when you brush yer teeths, pat yerself on the back.
You seemed to be saying that you wanted to "strike a happy medium" between people using critical thinking skills and at the same time not wanting them to use them "too much", possibly keeping them from applying them to religious doctrine or their own religious beliefs. Actually, I wanted to be able to believe in God, and be a critical thinker. To believe in science, and God.
Are you changing your mind about what you would say to "the big woo in the sky"? Um, no.
Often, I have been in a thread where you are being told by 4 or 6 other people that you have made certain specific errors and yet you refuse to or are unable to see where you've erred. What is it that rrhain used to asy? 2 billion people could think something, doesn't make it right.
It is at these times that it appears that you are just digging in your heels and refusing to correct yourself and are getting snotty to avoid having to do so. Or maybe I am trying to be nice, and clear things up.
This is one of the biggest reasons people get so incredibly frustrated with you. It is not everyone, so it doesn't worry me.
Well, expressing oneself clearly and accurately in writing here is a big part of effective debate at EvC. However, losing track of your own arguments, contradicting yourself, and not understanding analogies are not related to writing clearly. Yes they are. You are making many claims here, and they all go back to countless pages of debates. I do not think it is fair what you are doing without 100% objective evidence that I am that way. You are breaking forum rules, and now just attacking me.
That is insider-mentality and it is bullshit. sounds hypocritical to me, call it what you want.But everything you have said about me, can now be applied to you. There are many, many people who claim to have had an "encounter" with god and are plenty ignorant of the content and meaning of the bible. We "encounter" them here on EvC all the time. Yes, they come and go.Encountering God is a subjective thing, not an objective thing nator, and it is all relative to the person, and where they are at in life. Just like how I am trying to explain to ringo about peoples fruits in life, it's all relative. But I am here to stay, and I would have hoped by now, that through our discussions, you would have noticed an improvement in me, cause that's what I am here to do. Improve myself, test my faith, and try to share what I know. If these are considered bad things, then I'll leave.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 310 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Of course I said no such thing. On the contrary, I stressed that Columbus found something he wasn't expecting. Could you try to respond to the things I actually post rather than some gibberish you made up in your head? My reply was such, because you choose to ignore my point. You are lying. Your reply was "That's right, every explorer knew where they were going before they left" --- something which I never said, and do not believe, and which I specifically pointed out was not true. Now, would you like to respond to my posts, or to some stupid gibberish you've made up in your head?
Such is the search for God. Let me know if you come up with one single shred of empirical evidence for him, as Columbus did for the existence of America.
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