DRUGS!

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If you wold just buy my book, I'll explain why.

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Heeheeheehee

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I'm not all that well-informed about the controversy over supplements and the companies that produce them. I know there is one, and one of the sticking points, I believe, is over whether the FDA should approve supplements before they can be marketed. Is that correct? If so, I say yes, the FDA most certainly should have to approve them.

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Right now, the nutritional supplement industry is nearly completely unregulated. The industry has fought any law that would require them to prove their products' efficacy and safety. There is no standard for potentcy or dosage of most herbs. There is little known of herb/herb, herb/synthetic, or herb/food interactions. There is a great deal we don't know about herbal medications, including what chemical compounds are in them and what their effects might be, if any.

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But however Buz might feel about supplements vs. pharmaceuticals (and I don't doubt what you're saying), I inferred an agreement between us that the first and best method for most people to achieve good health is through diet and exercise.

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Sure. He's never had my disagreement on that point.However, he has also claimed that for every and any affliction one might suffer from, there is a "natural" or herbal treatment or cure.I wonder what he thinks the herbal cure for epilepsy or cancer is?

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That includes actually eating the foods that contain the nutrients, not taking a supplement. If the supplements are any good at all, they should be used as just that: a supplement for situations where it's difficult to maintain a good diet.

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This is where he equivocates.I agree that "nutritional supplements" should actually be nutritive.But some things, like comfrey, that he calls "nutritional supplements" have no nutritive value and are more accurately classified as "herbal drugs".The lobbyists wrote the law to lump Citamin C and comfrey together under the same term, "nutritional supplement", to avoid having to show that their products are safe and effective.

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LOL. That's pocket parking meter dimes compared to the pharms. Pfizer alone, just one of the hundreds of pharms did 52 billion (also with a "b") in one year. The entire nutritional supplement/herbal industry only did in 2006 what just one of the lesser pharms did in 2004.

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My guess is that the entire pharm industry does over half a trillion in a year and possibly a trillion or more.

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You have consistently criticized the synthetic drug industry for being a big, profit-driven industry, and there is no doubt that it is exactly that.But the point is, buz, that you are avoiding acknowledging, is this:The nutritional supplement/herbal drug industry is a multi-BILLION dollar a year industry.That ain't no pocket change.It is a smaller industry, yes, but 6 BILLION dollars a year is still a big, big business.So, what I want to know is will you also start criticizing the nutritional supplement industry for being a big, profit-driven industry?Or, will you continue to give a SIX BILLION DOLLAR A YEAR for-profit industry a pass because of your bias in favor of it?

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Well not quite free, but close to it

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Six BILLION dollars in profits a year is "close to free"?How do you figure that?

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and nearly all with good side effects compared to the extremely high prices of so many of the pharms most of which have their bad side effects.

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Do you accept the factual basis of each of the following statements?
A yes or no answer will suffice:1) Comfrey contains high levels of pyrrolizidine alkaloids2) Ingesting sufficient ammounts of pyrrolizidine alkaloids has been documented to contribute to hepatic veno-occlusive disease (liver failure)

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Generally, no. Compared to pharms mega billions, nutritionals are packet change.

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That doesn't matter, buz, as I explained previously.I'll explain it another way.City A has one million people in it.City B has 6 million people in it.The fact that City B is so much larger than City A does not mean that City A is not still a very large city.Both industries are profit-driven big business, even though one is larger than the other.

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All business must make a profit and yes there are some nutritionals who are in it for $$ with little regard for the public.

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And how do they get punished if they sell products that they didn't know would hurt people?

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Nutritionals must consistently provide beneficial services and results if they are to make it bucking the established healthcare industry so deeply entrenched in our culture or stay in business.

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Bullshit.Snake oil salesmen have historically always been able to make a good living preying on the gullible and desperate.

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The FDA is very tough regarding any side effects of the nutritionals or say a death or two

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No, they are not.First of all, we have very little knowledge of the chemical compounds in many herbs and their effects, and since most of them are not prescribed through MD's but are taken OTC or through "herbalists" who are not (unlike MD's) required to keep records and report any problems, we actually do have not much of any idea if herbals are causing problems unless they are very serious.Second, it is far more likely that herbs marketed to cure ailments or "support" various body systems have little to no effect at all, because the companies that sell them are not required to show that they are effective for what they are supposed to do.Third, hasn't it ever struck you as odd that you can't go to the healthfood store and pick up a bottle of Herbal Cancer Cure, Herbal Epilepsy Relief, or Herbal Cystic Fibrosis Ender?Almost all of the stuff available is marketed for health issues that usually resolve themselves in a short time, like colds or seasonal allergies, or have no reliable way to judge if they are working, like preparatins for "immune-boosting", or "circulatory system support".But now that you mention it, Buz, I thought that you said that all of these herbs in bottles are food?Why are they causing deaths at all if they are just nutritive foods and not theraputic herbal drugs meant to cure diseases and ailments?

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whereas they allow hundreds of thousands of deaths a year due to the pharm problems, not to mention all the suffering and lifetime problems often associated with them.

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The reason you hear about those problems at all is becasue the drug companies are required to find out about the risks and are also required to report problems if they happen.Herbal drug marketers are under no such obligation and there is no requirement to report any adverse effects of any herbal drug by anyone who prescribes them or takes them.Also, and you have made this error before, the number of people taking prescription drugs far, far, FAR exceeds the number of people taking herbal drugs, so of course the actual numbers of people reported to have problems with them is going to be greater.Combine that with the fact that there is no system in place at all for identifying nor making public problems with herbal drugs and it is no surprise that the straight numbers look like they do.Do you accept the factual basis of each of the following statements?A yes or no answer will suffice:1) Comfrey contains high levels of pyrrolizidine alkaloids2) Ingesting sufficient ammounts of pyrrolizidine alkaloids has been documented to contribute to hepatic veno-occlusive disease (liver failure)

City A has 6 million people.City B has 1 million people.Is City B still a large city?A yes or no answer will suffice.

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They seldom get punished simply because rarely can it be shown that they ever hurt anyone.

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Where are the records that show how many people were prescribed herbal drugs, which ones they took, the dosages, the length of time they took them, what other drugs they were taking, etc.?If there are no records kept, and there is no controlled testing done, we don't know if they hurt anyone, or if they help anyone, or if they have no effect at all.

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Would you like to document where this is widespread in the major alternative health facilities?

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The Whitaker Wellness Institute you mentioned offers quite a few quack treatments that have not been demonstrated to have any (non-placebo) benefits other than lining the pockets of the people who hawk them, such as:Accupuncture. WWI lists many conditions, including infertility and Parkinson's disease that are supposed to be helped by accupuncture even though there is no evidence to suggest that it can.Chelation therapy, which has never been demonstrated to have theraputic benefit.Reflexology, which has never been demonstrated to have an effect on the course of any disease is claimed by the WWI to be effective in relieving symptoms of such conditions as stroke, allergies, and hemorrhoids.Here's a handy website where all manner of quack, untested or disproven treatments have been compiled and explained. You won't read it, but I feel I should provide it for completeness.

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The science tech is mushrooming on alternatives

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Evidence, please.

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and many MDs are integrating it in their practice.

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Evidence, please.

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Not only that, but the major super markets are being forced by public demand to stock the organics and many of the alternative products.

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So what? Major supermarkets are interested in making money in any way they can. They sell magnetic insoles and bracelets because the public demands them, not because they actually work.

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The reason they aren't required to keep records is that we're talking about know edible products which have been consumed for eons for the most part.

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So what? There is still no way anybody can tell if the products are helping, harming, or doing nothing unless we have a record of who takes them, in what dosage, for how long, and what else it was combined with. A control group would be nice to have, too.Remember what happened with echinacia last year? Everybody thought it was so great for preventing colds becasue the marketing people in the supplement business were doing their jobs, the people selling the stuff made tons of cash, and then a couple of studies were done to test it's effectiveness. Oops. Turns out echinacia is no more effective in preventing people from getting a cold than a placebo.

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Again, the more you talk, the more you show your lack of knowledge on the subject. The reason you WON'T EVER SEE a bottle of herbal cancer cure, epilepsy relief, et al is because of that word WHOLISTIC. Alternatives do not treat symptioms.

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That's bullshit.I can go to the vitamin store today and see thousands of herbal drugs that are marketed to treat symptoms. Headache, diarrhea, sore throat, insomnia, nervous tension, sinus congestion, etc., etc.Your WWI website lists all sorts of therapies meant to relieve symptoms, too.

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Alternatives treat the body. That's why so few side effects. If you have cancer, you begin to detoxify the body via the herbals, the water intake, the elimination of cancer causing agents in the diet, the drinking of herbal teas, the probiotics which cleanse, detoxify, and boost the imune system et al, et al. This will not only work to help the cancer, but will have a positive safe effect on every system of the body.

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Which herbs are effective against cancer, buz?How do you know the immunse system is boosted by probiotics?

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1. The stuff available works to effect a positive effect on the entire body, so whether you have arthritis, prostrate problems, cancer, colds, et al, that's what it's suppose to do.

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How can you tell if the body is being hindered, or if the body is being helped, or if the body is unaffected by the probiotics and medicinal herbs?

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2. Unlike the doc who writes you a quick prescription collects the big $$ from your insurance and sends you on your way in a few minutes, the alternative route uses a variety of products, adjusts the diet, educates you on what's causing the problem et al. Doesn't that make more science sense?

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Unless the therapies and products have been demonstrated to be effective and safe through controlled studies, it makes no scientific sense whatsoever.And I think you are doing a great disservice to medical science and doctors when you paint them all with the money-grubbing brush.The elimination of smallpox wasn't done with herbals, buz. The greatly improved life expectancy of children in countries where vaccines have all but eliminated major childhood disease wasn't done with herbals, either.

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Nonsense! Believe me in this day and age of media coverage, if a death or serious illness happens, the cause of death is found out and the bottom line is that regardless of how many people are treated, the deaths or significant bad effects just aren't happening from the alternatives, period.

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I never said that they were only happening from herbal drugs, buz.Let me explain it another way, even though I know you will just ignore it:Group A has 1 million people in it. Half of them are taking a prescription drug, and since their doctors are required to keep records, and because the drug they are taking is sold in purified form and is standardized across brands for dosage, we know how much they are getting. We find that 5% of them get some of the known serious side effects. That's 25,000 people with serious side effects out of 500,000 taking the drug.25,000 people sounds like a lot of people, but it is still only 5% of the whole group.Now, Group B has 500,000 people in it. Half of them are taking an herbal drug, but they are taking it either OTC, out of their own backyards, or on the advice of some book or non-MD herbalist, so there is no consistent record of their taking it. We don't know how long they took it, what dosage, or how much, if any, active ingredient was in their pill, because there is no such purity or dosage standard in the herbal industry. We don't ever know, therefore, if any of them get any side effects, if the drug as known to produce positive or negative effects, since it has never undergone objective testing and no records were kept.So we can't make any determination here at all of if the drug was having any effect, good or bad or neither.

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Schraf, you are out there in lala land all by yourself declaring that herbals are drugs. Get over it. Consumable herbs don't become drugs until they are patented as such and to do that they must be compounded into something that is unnatural and not just an herb. LOL if you think you can patent and make mega bucks from the grape seed extract which I take, for example.

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You are just making up your own definitions for things here.An herb is a drug if it has active ingredients in it that are ingested with the intent to produce a theraputic effect.Willow bark extract was a drug long before it was ever purified and patented, for example, because it was used as a pain reliever.Nobody ingested willow bark extract becasue it tasted good or because it is nutritious. It was ingested becasue it was medicine.I can go into the helth food store and see many shelves devoted to "medicinal herbs" and "medicinal teas". It says that right on the labels.Herbal drugs and medicinal herbs are the same thing.

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1. Not in reasonable and natural state as I use it regularly via tea and poltice, et al. I even grab off a leaf and chew it up.

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You would be wrong about that, at least in part. Institute for Traditional MedicineSo, you could be giving yourself low-level doses of liver toxins, or you might be perfectly safe. You don't know, though.

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2. One would need to take an extraordinary amount of highly concentrated extract of the root to effect any significant damage.

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Not true, as I showed above. Very small amounts of pyrrolizidine alkaloids can damage the liver.

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3. Out of all the wonderful alternatives, you've found this etty bitty little one herb that you keep harping on. Why?

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The reason I chose this specific example is to nail you down, Buz. You consistently speak in wide generalities and claim that herbs are never harmful and have hardly any side effects and can treat any ailment.I found an example where that is not true, and if you refuse to admit it, it just shows that you hold your opinion irrationally and religiously rather than having a rational, knowledge-based belief.I would like to remind you that I am not opposed to anybody purchasing any medicinal herb as long as the company selling it has demonstrated through controlled testing that the product is safe and effective for whatever it claims it can do. Likewise for claims made by authors and practitioners when they advise people to do or take certain substances.Right now, no medicinal herb company has to demonstrate that their products are safe and effective.Edited by nator, : No reason given.Edited by nator, : No reason given.

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By this token, garlic, catnip, camomile, eyebright, celery, carrots, broccoli, parsley, rubarb, black rasberry, blueberries, flax oil, lecithin, wheat germ, fish oil, cocoa, oreganol, chickory, pepsin, mint, oxygen, chromium, zink, iron, magnesium, calcium, copper, manganese, eucalyptus, camphor, et al et al et al et al.........are all drugs which have a theraputic effect.

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Nope. Those are almost all either nutritive foods or minerals.They contain no active compounds that are ingested to produce a theraputic result.Like, you could never overdose on celery, but you can overdose on acetylsalicylic acid, the active compound in willow bark that produces the theraputic effect of pain relief, reduction in acute swelling, and fever reduction.This herb talk is pretty off-topic anyway, but if I have some time I'm going to start a new thread. I will restate my responses to your statements that you have avoided addressing. See you there.