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Author Topic:   Evolution and complexity
Taz
Member (Idle past 3312 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 13 of 113 (403221)
06-01-2007 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by ircarrascal
06-01-2007 11:04 AM


ircarrascal writes:
Anyways, perhaps a related question then is how two (new?) species can coexist? Let me try to explain. When a mutation occurs and a new species appears by natural selection, doesn't the predecesor ceases to exist after a certain time? How is it possible then to have branching in the tree of evolution?
Crashfrog already pointed out the reason why different species of the same branch can coexist. I just want to clear some misunderstanding that I sense in you.
I think you think a speciation event takes place overnight via a single dramatic mutation. This is the most common misconception among people who don't know anything about evolution.
Permit me to bring in the a few examples to make this easier for you.
The human history can be divided up into ages: stone age, bronze age, iron age, ect. Your assumption that a single dramatic mutation bringing in a new species over night is like saying in such and such date the world in one voice decided to change from the bronze age to the iron age.
It doesn't make any sense that such change occur over night with every civilization on earth being in sync with each other.
The reality is that little by little the tools in each civilization became more advance. Little by little, people discovered how to extract iron from the ores. Little by little, people discovered that iron was a lot stronger than bronze. Little by little, nations began to switch their weapons from bronze to iron. Little by little, changes were made in the cultures.
The transition literally took thousands of years.
The same could be said about speciation, except in a much longer period and much grander scale. Little by little, mutations are accumulated within a population that distinct it from the rest of the species. Over the course of millions of years, a population may become different enough from the rest of the species that it could be labeled its own species. The transition took place over millions of years. There was no one date when the entire population decided "ok, let's be our own species!"
With this regard, can you think of any reason why the parent species and the daughter species can't coexist at the same time if not in the same niche?


We are BOG. Resistance is voltage over current.
Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by ircarrascal, posted 06-01-2007 11:04 AM ircarrascal has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3312 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 27 of 113 (403344)
06-01-2007 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by ircarrascal
06-01-2007 2:27 PM


Re: Thanks
ircarrascal writes:
I am a scientist and I work with things* that have 'lived' billions of years and 'evolve' very slowly...


We are BOG. Resistance is voltage over current.
Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by ircarrascal, posted 06-01-2007 2:27 PM ircarrascal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Doddy, posted 06-02-2007 3:54 AM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3312 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 29 of 113 (403398)
06-02-2007 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Doddy
06-02-2007 3:54 AM


Re: Thanks
Ok, that makes even less sense than before. I don't think I've ever met a scientist that's as ignorant of another field of science as this. Oh well, I guess there's a first time for everything.


We are BOG. Resistance is voltage over current.
Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Doddy, posted 06-02-2007 3:54 AM Doddy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by ircarrascal, posted 06-02-2007 3:07 PM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3312 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 36 of 113 (403438)
06-02-2007 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by ircarrascal
06-02-2007 3:07 PM


Re: Thanks
Well, I guess I shouldn't have been so surprised or confused. We've had a self proclaimed engineer who thought earth's gravity is caused by its rotation, a self proclaimed biologist who thought anti-biotics work on viruses, a self proclaimed teacher who thought "falling stars" are actually literally falling stars, etc. Why not a cosmologist who thought speciation happen over night with the parent species automatically going extinct?
By the way, welcome to this forum. I certainly hope you'd stay here and participate often. Don't let me drive you away. Just think of me as a cranky person who likes to pick on newbies.


We are BOG. Resistance is voltage over current.
Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by ircarrascal, posted 06-02-2007 3:07 PM ircarrascal has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3312 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 41 of 113 (403454)
06-02-2007 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Zhimbo
06-02-2007 7:39 PM


Re: Thanks
Zhimbo writes:
I'll second that, actually - everyone SHOULD read the Origin of Species.
While I do agree that it's a work of genius, I wouldn't recommend this book to beginners. To tell you the truth, while reading that book, I had the feeling I was reading Mary Shelley's Frankenstein all over again. I'd recommend reading things like high school bio text books first before moving on to Darwin's book.


We are BOG. Resistance is voltage over current.
Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Zhimbo, posted 06-02-2007 7:39 PM Zhimbo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by dwise1, posted 06-03-2007 1:11 AM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3312 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 44 of 113 (403461)
06-03-2007 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by dwise1
06-03-2007 1:11 AM


Re: Thanks
dwise1 writes:
Wouldn't undergraduate college textbooks be better?
Yes, I suppose. Anything is better than asking a newbie to go straight to Darwin's book.
The only reason creationism seems to be winning out among the ignorant crowd is because of its easiness to digest. You guys are hardly doing us a favor by asking people who never got anything beyond a high school degree to read Darwin's book. Beside scientific approach (which is pretty hard for people without the proper education to understand), the book was written in 19th century language... like I said before, while reading that book, I had the feeling I was reading Mary Shelley's Frankenstein. It's certainly not something I'd recommend to people who haven't been through at least some form of higher education.


We are BOG. Resistance is voltage over current.
Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by dwise1, posted 06-03-2007 1:11 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by dwise1, posted 06-03-2007 3:48 AM Taz has not replied
 Message 47 by Zhimbo, posted 06-03-2007 6:28 PM Taz has not replied

  
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