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Author Topic:   Why are Haeckel's drawings being taught in school?
Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 7599 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 2 of 306 (40291)
05-15-2003 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by 7
05-15-2003 5:57 PM


How can you teach a drawing?
Are you saying that children are being taught today using Haeckel's drawings? Are you sure of this? Could you find a school for us where this is true - this should be easy enough if they are being used all over the world? We could then email the science department and find out why? That seems like the best approach, no?
BTW, are you saying that Haeckel's drawings are being used to teach the same theory as Haeckel used them to support - that of recapitulation during development?
If you want to criticize education, you ought to sharpen up your facts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by 7, posted 05-15-2003 5:57 PM 7 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Brad McFall, posted 05-15-2003 8:12 PM Mister Pamboli has replied

Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 7599 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 14 of 306 (40322)
05-15-2003 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by 7
05-15-2003 6:40 PM


You are sure this list of books teaches Haeckel's drawings? What does that mean?
Are they using Haeckel's own artwork and saying it accurately represents reality?
Are they saying that ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny?
Do you have a single example of a school teaching Haeckel's drawings. If so, let's have the email address and we'll contact the science department. Come on, it can't be that difficult if what you say is true.
If you cannot find an example, then it's hardly a widespread problem, if a problem at all, and probably not worth bothering about, don't you think?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by 7, posted 05-15-2003 6:40 PM 7 has not replied

Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 7599 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 15 of 306 (40323)
05-15-2003 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Brad McFall
05-15-2003 8:12 PM


Re: I was taught this decade ago
Are you saying that reusing the drawings, whatever point is made when teaching them, perpetuates Haeckel's theory?
When my son was shown the photographs of early embryos - just over a year ago - he was absolutely amazed at the similarities. It needed no false claims, no fudged drawings. From the photographs alone he immediately grokked the fundamental relatedness of the various animals.
Personally I say dump the drawings: more photographs, please, and open more kids eyes to our shared heritage as children, with all animals, of our common ancestors.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Brad McFall, posted 05-15-2003 8:12 PM Brad McFall has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Brad McFall, posted 05-16-2003 1:04 PM Mister Pamboli has not replied

Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 7599 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 17 of 306 (40327)
05-15-2003 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by 7
05-15-2003 9:13 PM


SO have you found a school that teaches Haeckel's drawings yet? And are you in a position to tell us what teaching a drawing means?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by 7, posted 05-15-2003 9:13 PM 7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by 7, posted 05-15-2003 11:03 PM Mister Pamboli has replied

Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 7599 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 29 of 306 (40372)
05-16-2003 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by 7
05-15-2003 11:03 PM


quote:
1. I never knew I was suppose to find a school that does.
Read the title you gave the topic. The best way to find out why is to ask, don't you think? Find a school, find yer answer
quote:
If a school uses textbooks that contain the drawings, what do you think?
First rule of critical thinking - look for assumptions and question them. I question your assumption that a school using a textbook uses all the material in it. I certainly didn't use the entire textbook when I was at school.
quote:
Schools use Haeckel's drawings as a way of teaching evolution. I thought this was obvious ...
I'm questioning your assumption that schools teach using Haeckel's actual drawings. The best way to find out is to find a school and ask them. Why is it so difficult, when you claim it is so widespread?
[This message has been edited by Mister Pamboli, 05-16-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by 7, posted 05-15-2003 11:03 PM 7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by 7, posted 05-18-2003 4:04 PM Mister Pamboli has replied

Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 7599 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 43 of 306 (40604)
05-18-2003 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by 7
05-18-2003 4:04 PM


quote:
I don't have to find a school because my school uses Haeckel's drawings hence my reasoning in creating a thread dedicated to the topic of Haeckel's drawings. Theres your answer.
My answer? You're the one asking the question! Why don't you ask your school why they use Haeckel's drawings?
Seriously, you're telling us that you opened a topic on Why do schools use Haeckel's drawings, you give nothing but some cut and pasted quotes and a list of textbooks, and it takes you 37 posts before you say that your school uses them! I think readers could be forgiven for being extremely skeptical of your good faith or your claim. However, I like to think the best of people, so I'll assume for now you were just being a little naive and I'll assume for now you are telling the truth about your school. I am sure you can forgive me these little assumptions.
Now, if you asked your original question in good faith - Why are Haeckel's drawings being taught in school - why not ask your school rather than us? After all, It would appear that you are in the best position of anyone on this forum to ascertain the answer. Having asked, you can come back to the forum with some really interesting and original information rather than a boring old cut and paste job from a creationist website which many of us have seen and discussed dozens of times.
quote:
1. Just because you didn't use one part of a textbook doesn't mean that someone else didn't.
Indeed, and nothing in my post suggested otherwise.
quote:
2. No i did not make any assumption that a school uses an entire textbook. Nor does the school have to mention anything about Haeckel's drawings. If the textbook contains them. a student can find them when he or she is using the textbook as study material.
But then the school is not teaching the drawings, is it? I'm still not sure what that means, but it seems to make sense to you, so I suppose I can continue with it.
quote:
3. Don't jump to conclusions and make up liable comments.
What conclusions? What is a liable comment? Perhaps you mean libellous? I fail to see how my comments could be construed as libellous.
quote:
4. I question your assumption of my assumption that i did not make.
You claimed that schools teach Haeckel's drawings - the only evidence you presented was a list of textbooks. From the evidence you presented, the implication was that you assumed that being in a textbook equates to being taught.
Obviously, I made the wrong assumption - I would better have assumed you hadn't presented a reasoned argument from evidence! How am I to know if you miss out information relevant to your chain of thought?
quote:
I question your assumption that it is difficult for me to find a school to back my claims. Once again you have made accusations and made liable comments in an attempt to create defamation of my character.
In what way did I attempt to defame you? I suggested you had difficulty finding a school that taught evolution - a quite reasonable suggestion under the circumstances as at that point you had failed to produce one. Now that a deus ex machina in the form of your school has appeared to rescue your argument, I naturally am very pleased, and look forward to hearing what they have to say, and seeing the discussion proceed with direct information from the coalface of education, rather than secondhand cut and paste quotes from partisan websites.
quote:
Oh and the teacher that used Haeckel's drawings as evidence of evolution was fresh out of teacher's college. I know she knows that Haeckel's drawings were false which leaves me to wonder why she would use fradulent material to teach evolution.
Why wonder? Why not ask her? Why not ask the Principal if the school authorities are aware that teachers are knowingly using fraudulent material.
quote:
Note: forgive my lateness in reply. I will try to find time in between weeks to answer your questions. I look forward to the upcoming "conversation."
No problem. Good luck at school.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by 7, posted 05-18-2003 4:04 PM 7 has not replied

Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 7599 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 47 of 306 (40655)
05-19-2003 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by 7
05-18-2003 11:00 PM


quote:
I felt I gave a satisfactory answer to his response but then he tries to talk to me as a superior instead of an equal
It's fun to read the thread again. You'll find the following in Message 20 from our sensitive friend 7 ...
quote:
Let me put it in words you understand:
Now, who was trying to make who sound stupid? Who had a cocky attitude?
Seems like 7 is a prime (groan!) example of potist anti-kettlism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by 7, posted 05-18-2003 11:00 PM 7 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by joz, posted 05-19-2003 1:57 PM Mister Pamboli has not replied

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