Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   A question to lose sleep over
kalimero
Member (Idle past 2444 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 1 of 16 (403285)
06-01-2007 5:51 PM


These might seem like simple questions, but I've never gotten a satisfying answer to them:
Why do people need to sleep?
What do you die from if you die from "lack of sleep" and what causes it?
Is any other organ involved in sleep except for the brain (independently or unregulated by the brain)?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Zhimbo, posted 06-01-2007 6:44 PM kalimero has not replied
 Message 7 by Jon, posted 06-02-2007 4:52 AM kalimero has replied
 Message 14 by crashfrog, posted 06-04-2007 12:24 AM kalimero has not replied

  
Zhimbo
Member (Idle past 6011 days)
Posts: 571
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 07-28-2001


Message 2 of 16 (403292)
06-01-2007 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by kalimero
06-01-2007 5:51 PM


You sleep because, either,
1) It's evolutionarily chosen as a resource saver. 1/3 of the day we're inactive, so we don't use up resources. Can't see well at night, anyway. If this is true, we don't sleep because we "need" to, we sleep because it was selected for as a resource conservation measure.
or
2) We're doing "maintenance" of some sort, cognitive or physical. If this is true, lack of sleep should hurt us in some way.
Or both.
The answer is, in fact, not very clear.
Despite the nearly universal idea that lack of sleep is harmful, it's shockingly difficult to "prove" it has harmful effects other than to make us really sleepy. First, in our daily lives, lack of sleep is associated with stress, which itself causes many problems. Second, in animal studies it's nearly impossible to keep animals from sleeping without stressful, anxiety producing measures - so many of the ill effects of sleep deprivation in these studies is also attributable to stress.
REM sleep - associated with dreaming - seems a likely candidate for some sort of special "maintenance" task. Many people believe that memory consolidation occurs during REM sleep, and there's evidence to show that...yet many anti depressant drugs reduce or completely eliminate REM sleep, with no detectable effect on learning or memory.
The reason you've never had a satisfying answer: There are no satisfying answers. Fascinating area of study, astonishingly resistant to giving up its secrets.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by kalimero, posted 06-01-2007 5:51 PM kalimero has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by crashfrog, posted 06-01-2007 8:45 PM Zhimbo has replied
 Message 4 by tudwell, posted 06-01-2007 9:08 PM Zhimbo has not replied
 Message 16 by Coragyps, posted 06-04-2007 9:21 AM Zhimbo has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 3 of 16 (403317)
06-01-2007 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Zhimbo
06-01-2007 6:44 PM


yet many anti depressant drugs reduce or completely eliminate REM sleep, with no detectable effect on learning or memory.
Could that, perhaps, explain the "deadening" effect that many people report feeling on such drugs?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Zhimbo, posted 06-01-2007 6:44 PM Zhimbo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Zhimbo, posted 06-01-2007 9:28 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
tudwell
Member (Idle past 5978 days)
Posts: 172
From: KCMO
Joined: 08-20-2006


Message 4 of 16 (403324)
06-01-2007 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Zhimbo
06-01-2007 6:44 PM


REM sleep - associated with dreaming - seems a likely candidate for some sort of special "maintenance" task. Many people believe that memory consolidation occurs during REM sleep, and there's evidence to show that...yet many anti depressant drugs reduce or completely eliminate REM sleep, with no detectable effect on learning or memory.
Hmmm. Hadn't heard of that. Another piece of evidence pointing to the importance of REM sleep is the "REM rebound effect", where, when one is deprived of REM sleep, one reaches REM faster and stays there longer the next time it is available.
Another theory, which might not be "as opposed to" memory consolidation but "in addition to", is that neural exercise occurs during REM sleep. Neurons fire across the brain; when neurons in the visual cortex are activated, we experience hallucinations we commonly call dreams.
So these are the 'mental gymnastics' I keep hearing about! Creationists aren't stupid, they're just sleepy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Zhimbo, posted 06-01-2007 6:44 PM Zhimbo has not replied

  
Zhimbo
Member (Idle past 6011 days)
Posts: 571
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 07-28-2001


Message 5 of 16 (403334)
06-01-2007 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by crashfrog
06-01-2007 8:45 PM


Could that, perhaps, explain the "deadening" effect that many people report feeling on such drugs?
Hmmmm...Hard to say. The drugs have pretty wide-ranging effects, so pinning it on the REM sleep is going to be pretty difficult.
It's interesting because many studies suggest that REM sleep deprivation has huge, dramatic effects on health and memory, yet these folks seem - more or less - fine. Certainly nothing on the order of what you would predict. Maybe the drugs "take the place" of REM sleep? That's just a WAG on my part.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by crashfrog, posted 06-01-2007 8:45 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Chiroptera, posted 06-01-2007 10:01 PM Zhimbo has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 16 (403341)
06-01-2007 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Zhimbo
06-01-2007 9:28 PM


Hmm. When I was in the Peace Corps, I literally did not sleep a wink for the entire first month of training. That's right -- I had no sleep whatsoever for an entire month. I think that the anti-malarial medication might be partly responsible, but it might have been the stress, since my first sleepless night was the very last night I spent at home before leaving.
But during the day I was totally functional. The only symptoms I noticed was my temper was a bit shorter (but not much), and feeling kind of stressed and down. But it's hard to say what was cause and what was effect.

Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Zhimbo, posted 06-01-2007 9:28 PM Zhimbo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by anglagard, posted 06-04-2007 2:59 AM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 16 (403369)
06-02-2007 4:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by kalimero
06-01-2007 5:51 PM


I think tht all the organs of the body need sleep to regenerate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by kalimero, posted 06-01-2007 5:51 PM kalimero has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by kalimero, posted 06-02-2007 1:41 PM Jon has replied

  
kalimero
Member (Idle past 2444 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 8 of 16 (403406)
06-02-2007 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Jon
06-02-2007 4:52 AM


regenerate what? why would organs need to "sleep"?
there is still this question: what do you die from when you die from "lack of sleep"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Jon, posted 06-02-2007 4:52 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Jon, posted 06-02-2007 2:01 PM kalimero has not replied
 Message 11 by BMG, posted 06-04-2007 12:07 AM kalimero has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 16 (403410)
06-02-2007 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by kalimero
06-02-2007 1:41 PM


what do you die from when you die from "lack of sleep"?
Do you really die from lack of sleep?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by kalimero, posted 06-02-2007 1:41 PM kalimero has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by macaroniandcheese, posted 06-03-2007 11:38 PM Jon has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 10 of 16 (403552)
06-03-2007 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Jon
06-02-2007 2:01 PM


One of the possible side effects of a continued lack of sleep is death. Usually this is the result of the fact that the immune system is weakened without sleep. The number of white blood cells within the body decreases, as does the activity of the remaining white blood cells. The body also decreases the amount of growth hormone produced (8). The ability of the body to metabolize sugar declines, turning sugar into fat. One study stated that people who sleep less than four hours per night are three times more likely to die within the next six years (11). Although the longest a human has remained awake was eleven days rats that are continually deprived of sleep die within two to five weeks, generally due to their severely weakened immune system (10), (11), (12).
410 error - Gone
chiro. you should have documented your sleeplessness. it seems you have a record. i myself have made it 5 days; i think the same as the greatest number of days i have slept through without waking.
it may be that there are a number of important bodily functions that can only take place while we sleep. the body is a complex colony of differentiated cells. who knows.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Jon, posted 06-02-2007 2:01 PM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by crashfrog, posted 06-04-2007 12:17 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
BMG
Member (Idle past 209 days)
Posts: 357
From: Southwestern U.S.
Joined: 03-16-2006


Message 11 of 16 (403555)
06-04-2007 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by kalimero
06-02-2007 1:41 PM


Exhaustion
there is still this question: what do you die from when you die from "lack of sleep"?
Here is a piece that explains some benefits of sleep. From learning and memory, cardiovascular health, resistance to disease, mood , safety, and metabolism and weight, sleep seems to affect us greatly.
But to answer your question, it seems several things can kill us from lack of sleep. But the underlying and principle cause would probably be exhaustion.
Just a guess.
Harvard Health

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by kalimero, posted 06-02-2007 1:41 PM kalimero has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 12 of 16 (403556)
06-04-2007 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by macaroniandcheese
06-03-2007 11:38 PM


chiro. you should have documented your sleeplessness. it seems you have a record.
I'd suggest there's a certain "unreliable narrator" effect here. I understand (from watching House) that people deprived of continuous sleep eventually settle into a pattern of microsleep, where they fall asleep for minutes or seconds at a time. Typically they're unaware of it since it generally happens when they let their attention flag or wander.
I hope Chiro wasn't operating heavy machinery. (And I don't mean to suggest that he's an unreliable person.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by macaroniandcheese, posted 06-03-2007 11:38 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by macaroniandcheese, posted 06-04-2007 12:21 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 13 of 16 (403557)
06-04-2007 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by crashfrog
06-04-2007 12:17 AM


i suspect the same.
i wasn't sleep deprived, but the other day i was helping my mom inventory my grandparents' house and was sleep-typing the whole database. i was impressed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by crashfrog, posted 06-04-2007 12:17 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 14 of 16 (403558)
06-04-2007 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by kalimero
06-01-2007 5:51 PM


So I'm reading the wikipedia article on sleep (you know, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep):
quote:
Asking "Why do we awaken?" instead of "Why do we sleep?" yields a different perspective of how sleep and its stages contribute to a healthy organism.
That's certainly an interesting perspective. Maybe being awake is so taxing on the body that it's a state that can be maintained for only so long. Maybe being sentient is something that our brains can't maintain constantly. It certainly becomes a very interesting question indeed when you stop thinking of wakefulness as the default, natural state of being.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by kalimero, posted 06-01-2007 5:51 PM kalimero has not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 15 of 16 (403563)
06-04-2007 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Chiroptera
06-01-2007 10:01 PM


Please Qualify
I call bullshit.
No one I have ever known, including myself, has ever actually gone without sleep for more than 72 hours without hallucinating to the point they could no longer function normally.
From what I have read concerning the lack of sleep, this is pretty universal if one excludes severe brain damage.
The lack of sleep itself is a primary contributing factor in cocaine and amphetamine psychosis.
Are you sure your definition of sleep is not the common one? or was it just lack of REM dreams?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Chiroptera, posted 06-01-2007 10:01 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024