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Author Topic:   Is complexity an argument against design?
Doddy
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 46 of 142 (375552)
01-09-2007 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by jar
01-08-2007 7:59 PM


Re: Design?
So are you saying that there was an intended design?
No, I never did say that. But even if there was, we silly humans may totally miss the point and see a face instead.

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duf31
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 142 (375586)
01-09-2007 6:50 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Rob
01-08-2007 9:41 PM


Re: mandelbrot
Did the computer and equations have a designer?
Interesting point. The algorithm certainly has a designer, but the end product doesn't.
As far as I know, there is no way of telling what pattern a particular algorithm will
produce, without the benefit of hindsight.
An excellent analogy for Theistic Evolution, wouldn't you say?

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 48 of 142 (375608)
01-09-2007 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by duf31
01-09-2007 6:50 AM


Re: mandelbrot
An excellent analogy for Theistic Evolution, wouldn't you say?
Well, an excellent argument for theism at any rate...

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herrmann
Junior Member (Idle past 6141 days)
Posts: 11
Joined: 05-22-2007


Message 49 of 142 (403536)
06-03-2007 8:42 PM


My theory (with only logic on this defense) is that because god created the universe it is not unlikely that he also defined logic , but also the laws of physics as we know them.In this frame of existence, logic dictates that only one perameter is necessary to form a perfect cube, but it also could be the case that that it is equally difficult for god to create an object with different perameters than the forementioned cube.
Another explanation could be that god, being decribed as perfect in the bible, has so little difficulty making the objects of this world, that he could make another object just as easily.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 50 of 142 (403538)
06-03-2007 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by herrmann
06-03-2007 8:42 PM


God as perfect?
Another explanation could be that god, being decribed as perfect in the bible, has so little difficulty making the objects of this world, that he could make another object just as easily.
That of course depends on which God that is described in the Bible you are talking about. While the God described in Genesis 1 might be considered perfect or near perfect, the God that shows up in the older Genesis 2 Creation myth is certainly not perfect, and in fact, kinda a duffus.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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herrmann
Junior Member (Idle past 6141 days)
Posts: 11
Joined: 05-22-2007


Message 51 of 142 (403643)
06-04-2007 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by jar
06-03-2007 8:56 PM


Re: God as perfect?
examples of god as perfect in NIV:
2 Samuel 22:31
"As for God, his way is perfect;
the word of the LORD is flawless.
He is a shield
for all who take refuge in him."
Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his works are perfect,
and all his ways are just.
A faithful God who does no wrong,
upright and just is he.
there is nothing that god in Genesis 2 does to say that he is unperfect. He is simply on earth in a limited form and is not acting as an omniscient being.
by the way I take offense from the calling of the bible as a myth, so can you at least try to appeal to the fact that people actually believe in it.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 52 of 142 (403652)
06-04-2007 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by herrmann
06-04-2007 4:23 PM


Re: God as perfect?
there is nothing that god in Genesis 2 does to say that he is unperfect. He is simply on earth in a limited form and is not acting as an omniscient being.
Of course there is, in fact the earlier God as found in Genesis 2 as opposed to the newer portrayal as found in Genesis 1, is something of a duffus. He neglects to make a female of the species for man even though he did so for all the others, he is clueless as to what would make a help meet for Adam and so brings in a bunch of different critters (Adam was not too happy with the Tiger but thought the sheep were REAL close) and is a far different representation than what we see in the much later God of Genesis 1.
And of course you can find examples of a "perfect" God in the Bible, I already pointed out that the God of Genesis 1 is close.
by the way I take offense from the calling of the bible as a myth, so can you at least try to appeal to the fact that people actually believe in it.
Tough. I did not call the Bible a myth, I called the Creation stories Myths, because that is what they are. They are a compilation (particularly the myth beginning in Genesis 2:5) written by different people from different cultures with different purposes.
Many of us believe in the Bible. I believe in the Bible. That has nothing to do with the fact that much of it is myth.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 53 of 142 (475384)
07-15-2008 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by jar
06-04-2007 5:10 PM


Re: God as perfect?
Many of us believe in the Bible. I believe in the Bible. That has nothing to do with the fact that much of it is myth.
Jesus certainly didn't think the story of Jonah was a myth!
Matt 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
If man gets to pick and choose what parts are true and what parts are not true, then man might as well reject the whole Bible.
Better to say only the learned of us know only in part, rather than say parts of the Bible are myths.
1 Cor 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Blessings

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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 54 of 142 (475398)
07-15-2008 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by John 10:10
07-15-2008 3:08 PM


Re: God as perfect?
Jesus certainly didn't think the story of Jonah was a myth!
How do you know that Jesus wasn't just using the Jonah myth as a teaching tool? Just because He used Jonah as an example doesn't mean He necessarily believed it was true, and if He did think Jonah's story was true then He was mistaken.
Matt 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
So, Jesus wasn't dead when He was in the tomb?
If man gets to pick and choose what parts are true and what parts are not true, then man might as well reject the whole Bible.
But much of the Bible has been shown to be untrue, plus much of it is clearly symbolic.
when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
Good advice.

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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 55 of 142 (475415)
07-15-2008 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Brian
07-15-2008 4:24 PM


Re: God as perfect?
when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
Mark 10:13 And they were bringing children to Him so that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked them.
14 But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, "Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
15 "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all."
Big difference between putting away childish things, and entering the kingdom of God as a little child (see John 3:3-7).
When one does so, one finds Jesus speaks truth to His children, not myths (see John 14:6).
Blessings

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 Message 54 by Brian, posted 07-15-2008 4:24 PM Brian has replied

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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 56 of 142 (475459)
07-16-2008 3:10 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by John 10:10
07-15-2008 6:48 PM


Re: God as perfect?
When one does so, one finds Jesus speaks truth to His children, not myths
But to convey a truth doesn't necessarily mean the supporting examples actually happened.
A bit like telling a child about the boy that cried wolf. It makes to difference whether that boy actually existed or not, it's the message that is important.
When we examine the Book of Jonah we know that many of the major points in the story simply didn't happen, thus we have to conclude that Jesus referred to myths in order to get his point across.

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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 57 of 142 (475482)
07-16-2008 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Brian
07-16-2008 3:10 AM


Re: God as perfect?
But to convey a truth doesn't necessarily mean the supporting examples actually happened.
Your argument is with Jesus, not with me. Words have precise meanings, and when Jesus said, "just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Matt 12:40), He either spoke literal truth or He did not.
You choose to believe He did not speak literal truth.
I and millions of others who have entered into the kingdom of God via the new birth (John 3:3-7) Jesus gives know that He did.
Blessings

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Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by onifre, posted 07-16-2008 1:11 PM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 59 by bluescat48, posted 07-16-2008 1:46 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 58 of 142 (475514)
07-16-2008 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by John 10:10
07-16-2008 10:12 AM


Re: God as perfect?
I and millions of others who have entered into the kingdom of God via the new birth (John 3:3-7) Jesus gives know that He did.
What method did you use to determine that He meant that literally?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by John 10:10, posted 07-16-2008 10:12 AM John 10:10 has replied

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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 59 of 142 (475517)
07-16-2008 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by John 10:10
07-16-2008 10:12 AM


Re: God as perfect?
I and millions of others who have entered into the kingdom of God via the new birth (John 3:3-7) Jesus gives know that He did.
Maybe you and your millions of others can belief your ideas based on John 3:3-7, but as for I and millions of others, who do not believe that the biblical scripture is true without significant evidence for other sources, your evidence doesn't alter my ideas at all. Since neither you nor I have any evidence whether any biblical account is true or not It seems that we would be at a stalemate as to whether the following
Jesus said, "just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth"
is true or not.
Edited by bluescat48, : punctuation & syntax

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 60 of 142 (475550)
07-16-2008 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by onifre
07-16-2008 1:11 PM


Re: God as perfect?
What method did you use to determine that He meant that literally?
The one where Jesus declared,
"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. (John 14:6)
and
"He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him." (John 14:21)

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Replies to this message:
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