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Author | Topic: Bible Question: What was the First Sin? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3625 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
Juraikken: you think that was without purpose? and He was there, He was watching all the time Spying on those nekkid people while they lost their innocence. Gotcha. So the first sin was not hubris. It was prurience. _ Archer All species are transitional.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
You actually touch on the heart of the matter in your post, but then seem to just slide on past as though you didn't think about what you wrote.
You said:
We grow our minds by experience, Adam and Eve didnt have any experience so they didnt know right from wrong, but now they do. Adam & Eve did not know right from wrong. Again, Adam & Eve did not know right from wrong. Until AFTER they had eaten from the Tree of Knowledge, they were not capable of knowing what was the right thing to do. Like children, they could not know that they should obey the word of one authority figure over another. It is only afterwards that they were capable of sin. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Juraikken Member (Idle past 6216 days) Posts: 82 From: Winnetka, CA Joined: |
that IS a very sensitive subject to touch upon but it is true, think about it, did Adam and Eve ever GROW UP? not likely, they were created adult size, but in order to BE adults you need to grow your mind as a child until your an adult. but Adam and Eve were like children.
but when you tell a child you shouldnt do it, they still have that thought in their heads what you said, but thier childlike curiosity takes over and they do it anyway. pretty much same with Adam and Eve. It wasnt malicious of God to do that because if they never did eat of the tree, right now you wouldnt be able to think for your own NOR would you be living a happy life, through suffering we gain knowledge and learn new things, if the Civil war, WWI, WWII, cold war, etc never happened we wouldnt have policies today to protect ourselves from large problems would we? we wouldnt learn so God did us a favor by doing that, BUT he didnt do it, satan did it. God used satans trickery to open their eyes 1. God did not lie when he said "you will surely die", Adam and eve DID die.2. God did not tempt them to eat of the tree, SATAN did. 3. God allowed sin to get through, not MADE sin get through becuase he was perfectly capable to stop that serpent but he didnt for a reason 4. God planted free thought into Lucifer in heaven, and Lucifer CHOSE the evil ways and that began this world, if Lucifer never had that evil thought, Adam and Eve would still be in the Garden of Eden. So, in the beginning God planted free will into Lucifer, Lucifer chose evil, this doesnt mean God did anything bad, he gave him free will just like us. Then, Lucifer, in his evil ways was allowed to be on earth with Adam and Eve, and Lucifer chose to trick them, God ALLOWED it to happen, 1. he knew it was going to happen, 2. he wanted it to happen to better ourselves in our lives becuase later on he says "Now man is like one of us, knowing good and evil" thats a good thing! so im glad that they ate of the tree now technically thats not true that AFTERWARD they are capable of sin because God had directly told them not to do that, now do you punish your child when they disobey? or do you let them keep on disobeying? no you punish them, they did something wrong! they deserve a time out. Edited by Juraikken, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
1. God did not lie when he said "you will surely die", Adam and eve DID die. Of course God lied and sinned doing that. If the story really happened then God was guilty of a Sin of Omission, for failing to fully disclose the terms of the contract.
2. God did not tempt them to eat of the tree, SATAN did. Irrelevant and immaterial. Before acquiring the knowledge of good and evil Adam & Eve had no capability to resist temptation. If there is a Sin here it is God's for Product Liability. Also Satan is not mentioned in the GOE story.
3. God allowed sin to get through, not MADE sin get through becuase he was perfectly capable to stop that serpent but he didnt for a reason Sorry, but just because a killer has a reason for his actions does not make him innocent. As you said, "God allowed sin to get through ..." so if the story is true and as you describe, it is God that sinned.
4. God planted free thought into Lucifer in heaven, and Lucifer CHOSE the evil ways and that began this world, if Lucifer never had that evil thought, Adam and Eve would still be in the Garden of Eden. Again, absolutely no support for that assertion in the Bible. In fact, the Bible actually presents a different picture of Lucifer, one where Lucifer only does God's will. A good example is the fable of Job. Edited by jar, : appalin spallin Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Juraikken writes: did Adam and Eve ever GROW UP? not likely, they were created adult size, but in order to BE adults you need to grow your mind as a child until your an adult. In the real world, we have to grow our minds by studying, going to school and getting stomped on Internet forums. In the Garden of Eden story, Adam and Eve "grew up" magically when they ate the fruit. The story illustrates the process of growing up. When we're children, we're innocent. We might do things that are "wrong", but we're not to blame if we don't know any better. That's why almost nobody believes that little children go to hell. When we get the knowledge of good and evil, we are responsible for our actions. We pay the consequences. Unfortunately, some people completely miss the point of the story and blame their own wrongdoing on some poor snake or fallen angel. If that was true, if "the devil made me do it" was a valid defense, the story would be meaningless. There would be no knowledge of good and evil. There would be no growing up. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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Nighttrain Member (Idle past 4021 days) Posts: 1512 From: brisbane,australia Joined: |
that IS a very sensitive subject to touch upon but it is true, think about it, did Adam and Eve ever GROW UP? not likely, they were created adult size, but in order to BE adults you need to grow your mind as a child until your an adult. but Adam and Eve were like children. Hey, you could be on to something here, Jura. Methinks this failure to grow up still lingers among believers. Could it be part of our fallen nature, or inherited sin?
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Garrett Member (Idle past 6194 days) Posts: 111 From: Dallas, TX Joined: |
I'm pretty sure your kidding, but regardless it mentions that they covered themselves after their eyes were opened to their nakedness...or something along those lines. Being naked wasn't a sin until they had the knowledge of good and evil which the fruit brought. Kinda like a kid running around naked isn't going to get arrested for public indecency.
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Garrett Member (Idle past 6194 days) Posts: 111 From: Dallas, TX Joined: |
Sin is simply the act of disobeying God, so by definition God can't commit a sin of omission, or any other kind for that matter.
You assert that there is no capability to resist temptation without the knowledge of good and evil. That is false. Adam and Eve had a choice. They didn't need to understand the dichotomy of good vs. evil to know that God, their creator, had instructed them not to eat the fruit. It's like saying you're child doesn't have the ability to listen to your instruction until he is old enough to understand the subject matter of the instruction. If I tell my child not to hurt other children, it doesn't matter if he/she understands why...he/she is perfectly capable of listening nonetheless.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
It's like saying you're child doesn't have the ability to listen to your instruction until he is old enough to understand the subject matter of the instruction. A child doesn't.
If I tell my child not to hurt other children, it doesn't matter if he/she understands why...he/she is perfectly capable of listening nonetheless. Your child has the gift of the Knowledge of Good and Evil thanks to Adam and Eve, but even then, until the child is old enough to really understand what "Don't hurt" means they are incapable of obeying. But before eating of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, Adam and Eve were less than even the youngest child. They were just animals. They were incapable of sin. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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herrmann Junior Member (Idle past 6170 days) Posts: 11 Joined: |
Simply disobeying god is sin enough. Man and Women did know what God meant and even restated the command to the serpent. Thus by having this knowledge, though tempted by satan, they still sinned.
Also, bearing false witness was not givin until the 10 commandments were givin. The 10 commandments are not expos facto. Also, it is neither of a false witness nor false testimony as false testimony is defined as "FALSE TESTIMONY - Testimony is "false" if it was untrue when it was given and was then known to be untrue by the witness or person giving it. A statement contained within a document is false if it was untrue when used and was then known to be untrue by the person using it." by lectlaw.com. Edited by herrmann, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Simply disobeying god is sin enough. Man and Women did know what God meant and even restated the command to the serpent. Thus by having this knowledge, though tempted by satan, they still sinned. Simply asserting stuff is not enough unless you can make a reasonable and logical supporting argument. Satan is not even mentioned in the Genesis GOE story.
Also, bearing false witness was not givin until the 10 commandments were givin. The 10 commandments are not expos facto. Also, it is neither of a false witness nor false testimony as false testimony is defined as "FALSE TESTIMONY - Testimony is "false" if it was untrue when it was given and was then known to be untrue by the witness or person giving it. A statement contained within a document is false if it was untrue when used and was then known to be untrue by the person using it." by lectlaw.com. Huh? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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shiloh Junior Member (Idle past 6143 days) Posts: 28 Joined: |
Somthing to think about reguarding the first sin question.
Actually, God spoke only to Adam reguarding the prohibition (2:15-17)not to Eve the info Eve got was from Adam - so maybe Adam did not relay the message correctly. Maybe thats why the Serpent went to her first with his question. Just a thought.
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shiloh Junior Member (Idle past 6143 days) Posts: 28 Joined: |
Somthing to think about reguarding the first sin question.
Actually, God spoke only to Adam reguarding the prohibition (2:15-17)not to Eve the info Eve got was from Adam - so maybe Adam did not relay the message correctly. Maybe thats why the Serpent went to her first with his question. Just a thought.
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pelican Member (Idle past 5013 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
It amazes me how the bible is still taken so literally. Seen any talking serpents lately? I don't dismiss the bible as an authority on life but the interpretations are bordering on ridiculous.
The bible taken as a whole is representative of the human race today (and every day) in our history. The good experiences, the bad experiences and everything inbetween. The mythical stories represent our inner worlds and the physical stories represent the manifestations of our inner worlds. Have you heard that we actually do manifest from thoughts, beliefs and emotions? Maybe this is the real message the bible tells us. We are all responsible and all contribute to the whole experience of life? It is time the bible wore a modern dress and this concept is far better than anything else I have heard. Time for change?
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3696 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: This is not correct. The first sin could only occur after the law was tended at Sinai. Note that Jacob married two sisters - forbidden in the OT laws - but this was not a sin as that law was not yet mandated, untill 400 years later via Moses. The issue of adam and eve become doubly wrong: it was not addressed to humanity, nor was it given upon this physical, earthly realm: the texts clearly states that adam and eve were in a different realm, from which they were cast down upon the earth from a paradisical garden - and re-entry was barred by spiritual beings rotating firey swords every which way. The first law is that of 'GO FORTH AND MULIPLY' [genesis] - because it is formalised in the OT. The Israelites were forgiven the sin of worshipping a golden calf in the desert, even after witnessing all the miracles in Egypt: this is because Moses had yet not descended from the mount and the law was not made manifest as yet. They commited no sin - whch is a biblical term for a crime. Cain too was forgiven the crime of murder - which carries Capital punishment - for the same reason. I believe the first sin was the violation of the sabbath, which law was given, and violated in the desert. We learn from this that mandated laws have to be enshrined via the registered written word - that's how the judiciary system operates: inferences or oral communications are insufficient, and not recallable by follow-up generations.
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