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Understanding through Discussion


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Author Topic:   The God of the Bible is Evil
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3456 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 151 of 190 (403567)
06-04-2007 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by iceage
06-04-2007 2:54 AM


Re: Three Stages of Development
quote:
I mentioned Alexander to show that improvement and progression was accompanying the growth and maturation of mankind, external of the dark vision of god in the OT.
Alexander the Great (356 bce-323 bce)
J & E Writings (922 bce-722 bce)
Combined JE and the Deuteronomy and Priestly writings (722 bce - 539 bce)
Combined JEPD (539 bce - 400 bce)
Alexander is still in a different timeframe than the writings. Mankind should show growth. Enslavement instead of death is still growth.
So did mankind grow or was Alexander exceptional? Did his example prevail?
The cruel treatment of the Jews by Antiochus IV Epiphanes (215 bce - 164 bce), who was part of the Seleucid Empire that succeeded Alexander's reign, lead to the Jewish revolt lead by the Maccabees. The Book of the Maccabees gives the Jewish view of the events.
1 Maccabees
7: And after Alexander had reigned twelve years, he died.
8: Then his officers began to rule, each in his own place.
9: They all put on crowns after his death, and so did their sons after them for many years; and they caused many evils on the earth. ...
30: Deceitfully he spoke peaceable words to them, and they believed him; but he suddenly fell upon the city, dealt it a severe blow, and destroyed many people of Israel.
31: He plundered the city, burned it with fire, and tore down its houses and its surrounding walls.
32: And they took captive the women and children, and seized the cattle. ...
60: According to the decree, they put to death the women who had their children circumcised,
61: and their families and those who circumcised them; and they hung the infants from their mothers' necks.
Times were still dark. Revolts and war are not pretty, no matter when it happens.
quote:
My whole thesis is that the bible marks the progression of human thought concerning the divine. In that respect, the bible has value in understanding the mind of humans not the mind of God. However, as soon as someone starts to believing that the stories and myths are of divine origin or are inspired the error begins.
But stating that the God of the OT is evil sheds no more understanding on the reality behind the writings. IMO, understanding that rules of war are different than civil laws. IOW, How I deal with my neighbor on a day to day basis is different than how I or a country deal with a life threatening invader.
Understanding is necessary to battle illogical claims from either side.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by iceage, posted 06-04-2007 2:54 AM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by iceage, posted 06-04-2007 12:10 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 155 by Nighttrain, posted 06-04-2007 11:39 PM purpledawn has replied

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 152 of 190 (403601)
06-04-2007 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by purpledawn
06-04-2007 8:31 AM


Re: Three Stages of Development
PD writes:
Alexander is still in a different time frame than the writings. Mankind should show growth.
Granted that is true. My only point is to show that the progressive move of humanity to extend empathy and to affirm a commonwealth beyond the tribe is not unique.
PD writes:
Enslavement instead of death is still growth.
To this I disagree. The motivation of commanding slavery versus death was with respect to what was advantageous to the Hebrews, and did not spring from some empathy for the lives of the "enemy". It was a practical matter.
Consider the recent kidnapping of the two GI's by Islamic fundamentalist in Iraq. Do you consider that their stance is "softening" because they kidnapped these soldiers instead of killing them immediately. They are kept alive because they are useful.
PD writes:
But stating that the God of the OT is evil sheds no more understanding on the reality behind the writings
The vision of god of the OT is evil for two reasons:
  • It teaches and justifies genocide, rape, slavery and pillaging based on the idea that a god has ordained these actions. The notion that some deity would instruct and require humans to kill other humans is evil IMHO.
    This is the exact same evil working in minds of today's suicide bomber. This is exact same fuel that powers Islamic terrorism.
  • It debases and blasphemes God, by attributing to god, deplorable and banal acts of tribal warfare and regional conquest.
    PD writes:
    Understanding is necessary to battle illogical claims from either side.
    Understanding is key. The writings in the OT chronicle the development of a people. Their writing reflect the norms of the age and they weave a vision of god within their own national identity.
    This vantage point is useful to understand the mind of humans and the development of civilization - useless for understanding the mind of God.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 151 by purpledawn, posted 06-04-2007 8:31 AM purpledawn has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 153 by purpledawn, posted 06-04-2007 12:32 PM iceage has replied

      
    purpledawn
    Member (Idle past 3456 days)
    Posts: 4453
    From: Indiana
    Joined: 04-25-2004


    Message 153 of 190 (403602)
    06-04-2007 12:32 PM
    Reply to: Message 152 by iceage
    06-04-2007 12:10 PM


    Re: Three Stages of Development
    quote:
    Understanding is key. The writings in the OT chronicle the development of a people. Their writing reflect the norms of the age and they weave a vision of god within their own national identity.
    This vantage point is useful to understand the mind of humans and the development of civilization - useless for understanding the mind of God.
    Which is essentially what I've been saying.

    "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 152 by iceage, posted 06-04-2007 12:10 PM iceage has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 154 by iceage, posted 06-04-2007 1:07 PM purpledawn has not replied

      
    iceage 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
    Posts: 1024
    From: Pacific Northwest
    Joined: 09-08-2003


    Message 154 of 190 (403608)
    06-04-2007 1:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 153 by purpledawn
    06-04-2007 12:32 PM


    Re: Three Stages of Development
    PD writes:
    Which is essentially what I've been saying.
    Cool. I maybe a block head at times. Sometimes (especially in this environment) it is easy to assume positions or leanings in other people.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 153 by purpledawn, posted 06-04-2007 12:32 PM purpledawn has not replied

      
    Nighttrain
    Member (Idle past 3993 days)
    Posts: 1512
    From: brisbane,australia
    Joined: 06-08-2004


    Message 155 of 190 (403745)
    06-04-2007 11:39 PM
    Reply to: Message 151 by purpledawn
    06-04-2007 8:31 AM


    Re: Three Stages of Development
    How I deal with my neighbor on a day to day basis is different than how I or a country deal with a life threatening invader.
    Looks like you`ve never been in the wonderful world of commerce. Spying, disinformation, probing attacks, guerrilla warfare, frontal attacks, take no prisoners, betrayals--all grist for the business mill. :-p

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 151 by purpledawn, posted 06-04-2007 8:31 AM purpledawn has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 156 by purpledawn, posted 06-05-2007 8:02 AM Nighttrain has not replied

      
    purpledawn
    Member (Idle past 3456 days)
    Posts: 4453
    From: Indiana
    Joined: 04-25-2004


    Message 156 of 190 (403799)
    06-05-2007 8:02 AM
    Reply to: Message 155 by Nighttrain
    06-04-2007 11:39 PM


    Business is Business
    I've heard businessmen who are Christians state that business is business and church is church. One doesn't apply to the other.
    My husband sat in a meeting and listened to his Christian Business Associates agree to send faulty material to a customer.
    There are a few rules gleaned from the OT concerning business. (613 Mitzvot)
    Given the financial rules today, should a Christian or Jew be in banking? (rhetorical)

    "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 155 by Nighttrain, posted 06-04-2007 11:39 PM Nighttrain has not replied

      
    Jon Paine
    Member (Idle past 6074 days)
    Posts: 65
    From: Los Angeles, California
    Joined: 05-24-2007


    Message 157 of 190 (404215)
    06-07-2007 11:20 AM


    Natural Disasters are God's Wrath
    If it seems that this thread beats a dead horse, it is only because of the abundance of reference material available. Feel free to comment. I, like many, was taught this stuff literally as a child so you might understand its' significance and resonance for some of us. Simply put again, the God of the Bible is not a nice fellow.
    Natural Disasters are God's Wrath:
    (Nahum 1:2-8 NLT)
    "The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm. The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet. At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt. In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed. Who can stand before his fierce anger? Who can survive his burning fury? His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in his presence. The LORD is good. When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge. And he knows everyone who trusts in him. But he sweeps away his enemies in an overwhelming flood. He pursues his foes into the darkness of night."
    Edited by Jon Paine, : Back of topic, 1st para explanation

    Replies to this message:
     Message 158 by iceage, posted 06-07-2007 12:01 PM Jon Paine has not replied
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    iceage 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
    Posts: 1024
    From: Pacific Northwest
    Joined: 09-08-2003


    Message 158 of 190 (404221)
    06-07-2007 12:01 PM
    Reply to: Message 157 by Jon Paine
    06-07-2007 11:20 AM


    Re: Natural Disasters are God's Wrath
    Jon Paine writes:
    Simply put again, the God of the Bible is not a nice fellow.
    I think it is more accurate to say that the depiction of God in the Bible is not a nice fellow, neither is the depiction of Zeus.
    Religious ideology of a culture is simply the reflection of the collective social conscience and environment. Harsh cultures and times have harsh religious ideals. The depiction of god in the OT is a stern judgmental patriarch warrior because that reflects the surrounding culture and an era of conflict.
    The great error people make is when they actually believe this depiction accurately describes God.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 157 by Jon Paine, posted 06-07-2007 11:20 AM Jon Paine has not replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 393 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 159 of 190 (404223)
    06-07-2007 12:14 PM
    Reply to: Message 157 by Jon Paine
    06-07-2007 11:20 AM


    Re: Natural Disasters are God's Wrath
    I, like many, was taught this stuff literally as a child so you might understand its' significance and resonance for some of us.
    I believe that. But you are not attacking a dead horse, you are attacking the wrong target entirely.
    The problem is not that the God of the Bible is evil, the very verse you quoted from Nahum says otherwise, but rather the way that the Bible is taught.
    Instead of ranting on about the God of the Bible, you should be ranting about those who teach as you were taught.
    The issue is not the Bible, it is the teachers, the Pastors and Priests and Padres and Ministers who teach from a position of Ignorance and who fail to teach the context of the Bible and the stories therein.

    Aslan is not a Tame Lion

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 157 by Jon Paine, posted 06-07-2007 11:20 AM Jon Paine has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 160 by iceage, posted 06-07-2007 1:10 PM jar has replied

      
    iceage 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
    Posts: 1024
    From: Pacific Northwest
    Joined: 09-08-2003


    Message 160 of 190 (404229)
    06-07-2007 1:10 PM
    Reply to: Message 159 by jar
    06-07-2007 12:14 PM


    Re: Natural Disasters are God's Wrath
    Jar writes:
    The issue is not the Bible, it is the teachers, the Pastors and Priests and Padres and Ministers who teach from a position of Ignorance and who fail to teach the context of the Bible and the stories therein.
    I think I disagree with both you and PurpleDawn on this issue. I don't believe there is scrap of god in the OT stories.
    They are anthropomorphisms that are the result of our tendency to over-detect the presence of ourselves in the natural/supernatural world. Like mickey mouse and faces in the clouds.
    The Greek philosopher Xenophanes nailed this 500 BC
    Xenophanes writes:
    The Ethiops say that their gods are flat-nosed and black, While the Thracians say that theirs have blue eyes and red hair.
    Yet if cattle or horses or lions had hands and could draw,
    And could sculpture like men, then the horses would draw their gods
    Like horses, and cattle like cattle; and each they would shape
    Bodies of gods in the likeness, each kind, of their own.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 159 by jar, posted 06-07-2007 12:14 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 161 by jar, posted 06-07-2007 2:11 PM iceage has not replied
     Message 162 by pelican, posted 06-08-2007 5:03 AM iceage has not replied
     Message 163 by purpledawn, posted 06-08-2007 5:42 AM iceage has replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 393 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 161 of 190 (404233)
    06-07-2007 2:11 PM
    Reply to: Message 160 by iceage
    06-07-2007 1:10 PM


    Re: Natural Disasters are God's Wrath
    I think I disagree with both you and PurpleDawn on this issue. I don't believe there is scrap of god in the OT stories.
    Okay, you are of course free to hold any position.
    However, what you go on to say ...
    They are anthropomorphisms that are the result of our tendency to over-detect the presence of ourselves in the natural/supernatural world. Like mickey mouse and faces in the clouds.
    ... is not too far from what I have been saying with one major exception.
    I believe that ALL of the various religious writings are the work of man, inspired perhaps but still man. To say there is not a "scrap of God in the OT stories" I believe overstates the case.
    If there is a GOD, then all of the stories are attempts by man to describe God, but more so the relationships between GOD and Man, Man and GOD and between Man and his fellow Man and the world we all live in.
    Look at the Creation myths in Genesis. We see two entirely different Gods, one extremely transcendent but aloof, creating all there is, seen and unseen, but apart from what is created. The other is far more human, approachable, directly involved with what is created and creating by hand, through trial and error.
    Those two descriptions when seen alone are mutually exclusive. If one is absolutely true, then the other is false.
    But if it is examined through the context of what is being taught, then they are possible as stories, each standing on its own, each illustration differing aspects of one GOD.
    Certainly there is lots of anthropomorphisms in the Bible. People wrote the stories. There is also lots of ignorance, attempts to explain the world we live in within the context of the knowledge at the time.
    There is a book by Gordon R. Dickson, it was the sequel to The Dragon and the George but the name escapes me at the moment.
    In the story the protagonist is talking about magic with S. Carolinus, a AAA+ mage as opposed to S carolinus carolinus, also a powerful magician.
    The Mage points out that at one time all things were magic. Gradually over time some forms of magic became so well known that they moved from the realm of great secret to common knowledge. The example given was that a hunter needed two skins attached to make a cape. He went to the wise woman of the village who knew the magic of attaching skins.
    She said "Yes, I can do it. But it is great magic and you must leave the hides with me. If you try to watch you will surely be struck by lightening during the next storm." She then took the hides into the cave and sewed them together.
    At that time, sewing was "magic", Powerful magic. Only as people gained knowledge did it move from the realm of magic to the commonplace.
    And, as is pointed out in the story, the best magic to use is that magic that has moved into the realm of the commonplace.
    Yet it is still, magic.

    Aslan is not a Tame Lion

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 160 by iceage, posted 06-07-2007 1:10 PM iceage has not replied

      
    pelican
    Member (Idle past 4985 days)
    Posts: 781
    From: australia
    Joined: 05-27-2007


    Message 162 of 190 (404328)
    06-08-2007 5:03 AM
    Reply to: Message 160 by iceage
    06-07-2007 1:10 PM


    Image of god
    I absolutely agree that each belief of a god is individual, and is based on one's own learnings and experience. I suggest if we are looking for a god to unify us all, then he\she\it will not be found in our total\collective belief system as it stands at the moment..

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 160 by iceage, posted 06-07-2007 1:10 PM iceage has not replied

      
    purpledawn
    Member (Idle past 3456 days)
    Posts: 4453
    From: Indiana
    Joined: 04-25-2004


    Message 163 of 190 (404330)
    06-08-2007 5:42 AM
    Reply to: Message 160 by iceage
    06-07-2007 1:10 PM


    God in Our Likeness
    quote:
    I don't believe there is scrap of god in the OT stories.
    Did you mean scrap of good or actually scrap of god?
    quote:
    The Greek philosopher Xenophanes nailed this 500 BC
    Exactly!

    "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 160 by iceage, posted 06-07-2007 1:10 PM iceage has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 164 by Hawkins, posted 06-12-2007 6:29 AM purpledawn has replied
     Message 167 by iceage, posted 06-13-2007 2:52 AM purpledawn has replied

      
    Hawkins
    Member (Idle past 1373 days)
    Posts: 150
    From: Hong Kong
    Joined: 08-25-2005


    Message 164 of 190 (405297)
    06-12-2007 6:29 AM
    Reply to: Message 163 by purpledawn
    06-08-2007 5:42 AM


    Re: God in Our Likeness
    1)
    When you said that Hitler killed millions of Jews while he didn't with his own pistol, you are talking about ultimate responsibility.
    When you said that White House is built by americans, or an architect or a group of workers, they could be all correct as a matter of perspective, and not necessarily contradictions.
    When apply this to sovereignty you may say that California belongs to the US, or those living in CA or americans, or perhaps GW Bush (from Bin Laden's perspective).
    That said, you wont be able to find a "good God" or simply "God" who is omni-potent, omni-present and omni-scient while he doesn't kill, in a sense of ultimate responsibility and sovereignty.
    And virtually whoever gets killed in whatever situation, you may say in a sense, God killed him. I think God won't reject your saying. Yet it's far from saying that God is evil.
    2) Wars and Caesars
    3) tradedies
    There are more to say but still I am busy, I might get back later when I have time. Actually you may figure it out if you would like to think more and think deep.
    To me, you have just proven that the Bible God is a true God, what left is the question that why He is a loving God.
    In short, you expect a good God to save lives, while a good God saves souls. You expect a good God to look after lives on earth, while a good God looks after afterlives. You expect a good God to save more lives, while a good God saves more souls. You scope is focusing on 120 years on earth, while a good God is focusing on some 1000000000000000000000............years.
    That's the point.
    Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.
    Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.
    Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 163 by purpledawn, posted 06-08-2007 5:42 AM purpledawn has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 165 by purpledawn, posted 06-12-2007 7:17 AM Hawkins has replied

      
    purpledawn
    Member (Idle past 3456 days)
    Posts: 4453
    From: Indiana
    Joined: 04-25-2004


    Message 165 of 190 (405306)
    06-12-2007 7:17 AM
    Reply to: Message 164 by Hawkins
    06-12-2007 6:29 AM


    Topic
    I'm assuming you aren't actually responding to anything I've posted since your post doesn't seem to address anything I've posted.
    This topic deals with how the OT God is characterized. I don't see that your post is addressing the topic, so I can't really respond with more than what I've already posted earlier. See Message 1 for topic opener.

    "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 164 by Hawkins, posted 06-12-2007 6:29 AM Hawkins has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 166 by Hawkins, posted 06-12-2007 8:39 AM purpledawn has not replied

      
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